How to launch a career in HR, People & Operations in Tech: Leanne Walsham
In this episode, we sit down with Director of Talent, People & Internal Operations at Patchwork Health, Leanne Walsham.
With over 10 years of experience in the people and ops space, we take a deep dive into how she got started, why she's so passionate about transforming start-ups and how she coped with mass redundancies and company closure (including her own job) at Leslie.
Having worked with businesses such as Kiwi Power, BDC Agri and Leslie, Leanne takes us through the highs and lows of people and ops, her favourite parts of her job and how much you can really earn.
How to launch a career in HR, People & Operations
Claudia: Well, Leanne, welcome to the Waddyado podcast. It's an absolute pleasure to have you here today.
Leanne: Thank you for inviting me. It's an absolute pleasure to be on your podcast, Claudia.
Claudia: Awesome. Well, Leanne, you've had a wonderful background in people and ops, working with large organizations, startups and in the tech sector so I'm really keen to kind of get into the nitty gritty of your background and help share a little bit of insights into what it's like to do a job like yours for those who might be looking to get into it and just provide some inspiration ultimately. How would you describe what you do for a living to someone who isn't in your field or industry?
Leanne: I actually very commonly do this because I have to regularly remind my dad or someone what I do. Family members, for example. In short, I am the senior leadership representative for taking care of everything to do with people, talent, and a large part of internal operations, but not everything. I focus on startups, so my career has mostly been in startups and small businesses, and the last sort of eight years in the tech space.
Claudia: Thank you for that. Let's bring it right back to the beginning of your career. Let's talk about maybe university, what you decided to do at university and then how your career weaved into working in sales and operations obviously at BDC, but then also moving into the people space.
Leanne: Yes, so my degree choice was psychology and this was largely based on how much I enjoyed the psychology A-level that I was doing. A little bit misguided if I will say so because the content back then when I did psychology as an A-level was I think quite different to how it is now and the psychology degree that I did was a Bachelor of Science so it was not a BA, it was very scientific and I went into doing that degree with a view to specialising in forensic psychology.
From a really young age I was, I know it's weird, obsessed with forensic science and pathology, which isn't something that I think most people know in my life today because I've met them in a point in my career where I'm not doing that and I've not really talked about that. So I thought I would go on to a career in forensic psychology, so I kind of had to leave sadly leave behind a passion or something I thought I would be passionate about, but that does not mean I'm not happy today in what I have found as a career. It just meant that something changed.
And when I finished my degree, um, it was. Because of my personal situation, very important. I worked straight away. I couldn't really go into anything unpaid or continue further study. It's a very real thing that I'm sure affects many people today. So I ended up enrolling on my university's internship scheme. to find a post-university job that hopefully would lead to a full-time job.
And I have to say, I think I was a bit, not naive is not the right word, but I didn't really have direction then. I started looking at all the ones, where were they location-based, what was the pay was because I didn't really know what to do after I had to change what I was going to do from forensic science, forensic psychology.
So I ended up like literally the list of internships, I just needed to basically be paid and it to be like relatively local to where I had finished uni, because I had like, that's where I was living then, and ended up doing an internship, which was in agribusiness, which predominantly was a trainee trader opportunity but it was for an incredibly small company like a one-man band type of one person running his business that had an employee leave and then he wanted an intern that he could develop obviously train himself. So this was actually like commodity trading but not on like the floor of a bank or anything that you can maybe hear those words and imagine that would be. But the other half of my time was operations because someone had to help him like run his business, no matter how small there was still that returns that were due and premises to look after, lots of business administration business management.
So when I wasn't learning how that selling and trading, I was doing a lot of operations. And at the time probably wouldn't have actually said, yeah, I had an early career in sales and operations. That's just something I've obviously learned. to describe my early career now. And I spent quite a few years there. I enjoyed both sides of that job. I really loved the selling and talking to people, and building relationships, but I also am a hyper-organized person, really love operations and ended up when I came to leave that company looking for more operations roles.
And I became really interested in the tech space. So I transitioned from there into tech back in 2016 and I went into an operations role, not a sales role.
Claudia: That's it. So obviously from there you moved to Kiwi Power. That's right.
Leanne: Yes.
Transitioning from Sales and Operations to People and Talent
Claudia: Awesome. And how did you get that role then? Because obviously it's a slight shift in terms of industry sector. So how did you come about that role?
Leanne: I think having detailed my operations experience was attractive to Kiwi and the reason I wanted to do it was I was well aware that the environment I was in before was really small and the way that we were doing business management or running the business, might not necessarily be the only way to do that.
Although worked well for that business. We went through a lot of change at the previous place. So acquiring a business, moving premises multiple times, acquiring a business with staff and then having to deal with the staff and learning a lot about people management and business operations that in those years that weren't there when I first started. And that really set me up for. that broader operations role, I say broader, but focus away from sales, focusing on operations.
And I joined Kiwi when they were at about 25 people, although the company had been around for about eight years, it was still a startup because I would say it was immature in its, um, its growth, but it was longer than years, uh, but still, actual team size around 25 people, bigger than what I'd left behind, uh, bigger. And they were the view to growing. So they actually wanted someone to come in and start taking care of operations that wasn't at the corporate governance level.
Claudia: And just for a bit of context, what does Kiwi Power actually do?
Leanne: So Kiwi was my first tech company and they were an energy technology company. So designing their own software, hardware and firmware to enable other businesses to participate in national grid programs for demand side response. And they also had an energy storage side of business as well. So lots of jargon, lots of complicated things.
Claudia: I'm sure that gave you a lot of insights into a slightly different world and really sort of was a quite wonderful learning environment for you, which it looks like it was because then obviously it looks like you were promoted to head of people, ops and talent there. So talk us through that promotion and how your role changed.
Leanne: So yeah, very, very different. From agribusiness into energy technology. So the title when I first joined, I think was something like, Internal Operations Manager. I think it evolved because Kiwi had an operations function, which was it's like client services operations. And then, the role sort of developed, I think when the CEO changed, so actually was it Kiwi through three CEO changes, which, almost like three different companies. I'm sure you can appreciate that. It's not the same business anymore when the CEO changes.
Claudia: So then obviously you lasted five years, which is just wonderful tenure in this day and age, to be honest, everyone kind of chops and changes around like the two year mark within tech. So you are definitely a employee who likes to grow and stick around, which is awesome to see.
Highs and Lows of Startup Life as an HR Professional
So from there, obviously you then joined an early stage startup where we actually worked together. on building the team at Leslie, obviously.
So Leslie, let's talk through that role, because it was definitely an interesting time in your career, no doubt.
Talk us through what your role involved as VP of People and Ops and Talent at Leslie.
Leanne: It was an early stage startup. They were building out their whole team, but also their VP team. So I joined in around exactly the same time that their VP of Sales, the VP of Finance and VP of Tech. They had, I think, around 10 or 15 staff members. When I joined, we were basically tasked with growing and building out their vision, which was global, as you know. And that's where you helped us build a rather large global team.
Claudia: Indeed, yes. That was a wonderful project, actually. I always talk about it now. We managed to, I think, secure 20 hires for you in two months. Yeah. I'm pretty proud of that, to be honest. Good work on my team that.
Missing out on Series A investment
And then I think it's really good to really highlight some of the people challenges that you face with this organization because obviously then unfortunately they didn't raise a series A investment round, which subsequently meant that a lot of the team were then made redundant. Obviously that's quite a big feat and quite a big job for you. So talk us through. How that all kind of came about and what happened?
Leanne: Yes, this is the highs and lows of startup life. They, it can be extremely fun and extremely rewarding, but it can be challenging because change can happen at any time. I did actually just want to give you a compliment because, being a standalone VP of people and talent as I was at the time, your team was a huge asset to me because you ran those processes, which for example, at my current job, I do now internally and did before, but because I was standalone in the early days of, Leslie, It was almost like having another arm of my function in your outsourced team. So thank you for that.
How Leanne handled redundancies and company closure at Leslie
So when we had the news that actually they might not continue as a company, Leslie's Tech was sold to another hospitality payments tech. company doing a very similar thing. So what was built was obviously, I guess, sold and used, and it's still in use today, but obviously would not continue as a team, as a business.
There were two co-founders. So it was working again in that founder environment. And when they informed the VP team that they actually needed to close down the, a lot of the logistics for that. the people management or care, I would actually say, rather than management in this case, but like the care and support for the people and each other kind of felt to me and the VP of finance, a wonderful colleague that I met during the time there to basically shut down the business.
And that meant supporting circa a hundred people who overnight basically found out that their that opportunity they had at Leslie wasn't going to continue.
Claudia: That must have been a lot to bear for you, I guess, because at the end of the day, as a people person, everyone, every employee comes to you probably, to try and figure out like, you know, what's going on. So I can only imagine how stressful that period was for you. And how difficult. Yeah, I can't, I can't even imagine, you know, that's definitely the highs and lows.
Leanne: Everyone did come to me and the VP of finance rather than the founders, actually, which I guess is kind of common. I think they also realized we were having a shared experience with them, which actually In the people world, as in HR people world, it's often that we are responsible for supporting the business through redundancy processes, but we often are still there.
And in this instance, we were also losing our jobs at the same time. So I think there was, I'm not going to say abnormal, but an unusual sort of similarity, you know, that we were in the same boat. as the rest of the team, but very difficult managing people who had just started literally or people who were lined up to start managing suppliers who also do invoices.
It was difficult to manage because there wasn't just one approach, we were global, we were also going through the job loss at the same time although being a VP team, it's obviously quite common to be on a longer notice period, so we were obviously a little bit more secure, but also having to work it rather than what we enabled everyone else was to just depart with their pay.
We were obviously working to support the closure. I think for me it was not something I expected to do, having been in other organisations where we have done redundancies for a number of reasons, either because we pivoted to a whole new business model where actually the roles have drastically changed and the need for the business has changed, so not necessarily a cash issue.
I've also done redundancies for cash reasons as well. but a full closure is very very different to a reorganization or a restructure where there are redundancies.
Claudia: Thankfully we did actually manage to place and some of the people who were unfortunately made redundant from from Leslie so there were some small I wouldn't even say a win, really, because it was a very horrible situation. But, you know, at least we then did manage to help a few people thereafter with that scenario.
Leanne: So as I say, the aftermath of leaving Lesley, I spent like the whole first month building spreadsheets of these people and, you know, focusing on getting them jobs at working with you, saying these people Like still looking, for example, working with other recruiters and the network, basically reaching out to the network saying this whole group of people across product, across tech, across sales, across client operations, across people in talent as well.
So it wasn't just sort of. Difficult. I think during the time when the act until the doors closed, it was actually just for a long time after as well.
Claudia: Yeah, you were working unpaid without, you know, to try and support because you're a good human and at the end of the day, you wanted to help people as well, so you're a good egg, Leanne.
Leanne's Role as Director of People, Talent, and Internal Operations
Okay, so moving on from Leslie, you then obviously landed at Patchwork Health where you are at the moment as Director of People, Talent and Internal Operations, so just give us a little rundown of your role right now.
Leanne: I started at Patchwork in September, 2022. Another founder led, startup looking to scale. So here is a never be put off, sort of anecdote because I still love it.
I still stayed in the startup world and the tech world just because one didn't work out does not mean. that every startup won't work out, so it really did not put me off at all.
Our founders at Patchwork are both clinicians, we're both doctors, we also have a lot of other people who are clinicians in the organization and that makes a very lovely and interesting place to work because there's real passion for care and wellbeing as well as what we do.
So we're a health tech company. Patchwork offers a workforce management solution. Our customers are the NHS.
We also have a lot of our staff, a lot of our team are people who have left either administrative or clinical roles in the NHS. They really understand the problem that our solutions are trying to solve, which I would say is really unique. One of the best things about Patchwork is having a social mission, so we don't have to sell it to people. People really understand what we're doing and why if we're recruiting people from the NHS, because they understand what we're trying to sell, what we're trying to solve, how we would implement our solution. It's a very easy thing to do. Um, because it's all true and it's all, it's all just like a really nice environment.
Claudia: It's good because they've all been there and done it, you know, they've worn the t-shirt so it really comes with a bit more authenticity, which is awesome.
Is it essential to be CIPD qualified in HR & People professions?
I'm going to go into like a little bit more questions around specifically the people function though. So firstly, I know that obviously you're CIP, I can't even say it, CIPD qualified [Charted Institute of Personnel & Development], correct?
Now, obviously you have a degree and you also are CIPD qualified. So it's quite typical in HR and people functions to obviously a lot of job specs will have, you know, is essential to have a CIPD qualification. Would you agree with that or would you not agree with that? What are your thoughts?
Leanne: I don't disagree or agree. And that is because if we are talking about like my world, like the startup tech space, it's absolutely not essential. I don't even put it on my CV. I don't think it's on my CV. I don't use it. I don't refer to it. I think it's probably on like, you know, my LinkedIn and my CV.
For example, I still renew my membership because there are resources that are really helpful, really, really helpful. So if there's a change in legislation, You can always find this stuff online, ACAS, government websites, legal firms, websites, signing up to newsletters, webinars. It's always a way we can find out about things that are changing because this course doesn't change very often.
It often talks about sort of 1970s models of management and leadership and stuff, which I don't think is really relevant. It's definitely changing and becoming much more modern, but the tech world moves at a pace that's even faster. than large organisations in 2024 are moving like, as in more traditional, larger organisations, if that makes sense.
I think that if you want to follow a path or get into a career in tech, small tech environments, small startup scale-up environments, really progressive in their approach to operating models, style of working, people management, employee engagement, people well-being, and all of that stuff. It's not, as to me, it's not relevant at all. Don't even call upon it in any way.
But you're right, there are so many other people and talent roles out there, not in this space, that will put it on the job spec. because it's a strong foundation in things like understanding how important it is to have structured change management. It's important to understand how and when you can make decisions when it comes to employees, or redundancies, or promotions, anything like that, anything that impacts the employee. And there's still a huge amount of obviously public sector jobs, unionised environments, and it does help in those environments, but obviously in tech, we're not unionised, we're not publicsector, it's not relevant for what I'm doing.
I, my team actually, one of my team members also has it from before she decided to do it before I started working with her and she completed the course brilliantly. But I also think at the end of it, she was like, Oh, it's not applicable to like our environment.
Claudia: Okay. So yes, I know definitely isn't the ultimate.
Leanne: Yeah. Because if you want to go into a typical HRD [HR Director] role, if that's the path that you want to take, they might actually look for chartered CIPD for Level 7, for example.
If you're going into maybe banks, insurance, traditional environments, they probably are asking for it.
We are very much non-traditional, extremely disruptive, very progressive, much more open approaches and policies, flexibility for employees on an individual basis. which is almost like the opposite of the foundations they teach in the CIPD course.
Claudia: That's a good context to have, I think, for anybody listening who is, you know, maybe in the tech sector looking to get into people or looking to get into tech, or maybe they're just looking at people functions or HR functions across different verticals. So thank you for those insights.
Leanne: It's also extremely theoretical, right? So nothing beats that experience because it is not a regulated industry. So there's no need for that financial Certifications, for example, it's not medicine. There's no need to be clinically trained. It's not a physical, mechanical, electrical engineer where they have to have certain standards that they're adhering to because of safety reasons.
The textbooks for CIPD do not teach you how to deal with employees coming up to you with real world problems. And I would say that the experience of getting your first experiences is key for this space in tech.
Claudia: Definitely.
The best parts of a career in HR, People and Operations
Claudia: So what would you say are the best bits of your job?
Leanne: So I think I said at the start that I really enjoyed the sales element of my first job after university and it was sad to leave that behind but actually I found the things I loved about that in my jobs that I've had since and that is literally the people sides. Doesn't matter behind a screen or in person it's still that human contact. And that is what I absolutely love. I'd like to say that the team members are my customers.
I don't know if that's exactly how I would describe the dynamic, but obviously the people I am here to support, nurture, work with the business to retain, work with leadership to improve retention and engagement are the team members. And I talk to people every day. That's why I absolutely love.
Hardest parts of a career in HR, People and Operations
Claudia: Awesome. And what would you say, I mean, we kind of touched on it earlier, but what are the worst parts of your job?
Leanne: Those difficult times, whether it's one redundancy or a whole company. It's really interesting because some people will say, was that the hardest time of your career when you worked with a company that closed down? And it actually wasn't because I felt like I was obviously in the same boat as other people. I could relate to them. They could actually relate to me. Which for the first time almost made those difficult conversations, which you have to do in this role, actually easier.
It was devastating and awful for myself and everyone, but I actually felt there was more of a, like, it was more relative to what they were going through. Um, it was actually easier.
So for me, the difficult part is maybe when some, you, you know, you're going through a huge change, it's mismanaged or it could have been managed better. It doesn't affect everyone. People can struggle to understand why certain business decisions are made and not other decisions are being made. And that's really hard. And I think the Leslie thing was like, it was a fact just impacted everyone in exactly the same way, not at home, not personally, but with their job.
Claudia: Hmm. So what was the hardest part in your career then?
Leanne: Actually that exact hardest, I don't know if I can pinpoint a hard part because I've learned a lot of lessons. I think I mentioned before we started this. So hard in terms of what was really, really challenging in my job role, I would say at Kiwi Power with change in top senior leadership. So the CEO changing was a huge, huge challenge. You know, being able to. You know, attract and retain talent. during those times required thinking in very different ways, applying myself in very different ways. The amount of things that came up as challenges during those times, I hadn't even thought of.
Claudia: And so just for context, was that mainly on the basis that candidates were looking at the business thinking, Oh, why is the CEO left? This is a like big red flag.
Leanne: So many, internal and external. The retention of the employees that we had. The major changes at Kiwi were obviously the founder exiting. So an interim CEO is very normal, but different because they're still a different individual. And then obviously the board searching for the replacement of the CEO, the founder that had left. That all took time, but there also was like three shifts because it's an individual person. So the retention of the team that struggled with those changes, maybe couldn't understand why certain decisions were made.
And as that was happening, we also, pivoted the business from more of a service model where we were doing a lot of manual support for, um, the, uh, users and customers to a software as a service model.
So there was a huge shift there that meant a huge shift in skills that were needed roles that were needed. Uh, so that affected both retention and attraction and answering the question of why, why did you see early? Why is the next CEO leaving? Obviously you can't get into that discussion in the interim. So they, they were leaving. but it's a very difficult question to answer for people looking to join the business and also stay in the business.
Claudia: Absolutely, I'm sure a lot of people leaders will completely sympathize with you and also recruiters, talent acquisition professionals with that situation.
How much money can you make in HR & People roles?
Claudia: Okay, so let's go into the hard-hitting questions around HR and people functions and what the salaries can look like. So entry level coming into like a people or talent function, let's say with people because talent acquisition is like separate salaries. Yeah. what would you say in tech that salaries are for HR people right now?
Leanne: So going into that series A, series B, and that is still general because the amount of funding can be very different, as you know. But I would say if you are looking for your first or maybe second opportunity, but looking to be in a tech company of, let's say between £50k and £150k per annum for sort of Series A, Series B who are not profitable yet.
For example, I think maybe if we use the term people partner for a level that might be relatable to people listening to this. Um, I would say that we'd probably be looking at, um, £35k to £50k which is quite a large band but that would really depend on is it the first role, second role, they specialize in anything, what is the relevant and transferable skills.
Some people for example to focus on employee engagement or various things some people want that generalist more of a generalist role and I would say those salaries do differ between more focused roles L&D for example versus generalist.
Claudia: Okay and so I know within the people function obviously as you just mentioned that you can literally go off and specialize in lots of different things but so it's all relative to what route you decide to go down but let's say for example you then move from like a people partner position then you move into another role what would that progression look like and what salary would that look like?
Leanne: So I think that would be definitely based on the organization. So I would say that progression is really unique in startups because it can often either be a recognition of what you've picked up, additional responsibilities, how you've grown in your role, but it can also be what the business needs. Some businesses go down the route of creating promotions to reflect the individual success, but actually in their environment, if you're a Head of, but you're a standalone in a role, sort of head of a team in the way that other organisations would use that title as a head of, as in a head of a team.
So talking about People Partner, to People Manager, to Head of, it's not always going to be, I say not always, I'm obviously talking about the environment I'm in now, there will be other tech companies that maybe do things differently, but there wouldn't necessarily be a path for progression.
But that doesn't mean there's not plenty of opportunities to learn more, gain more responsibilities, have pay rises and have that recognition.
So for example, I don't have a People Partner in my team, but if I did, I would look at their individual contribution. What was meaningful to them? Did they want to have that titular change for their own growth? What had they done? What are they owned independently and demonstrated to them, give them that, you know, move forward into a people manager role and I'd be looking for like what they've owned I would say in their people partner role to go into another role.
Claudia: And so people manager salary what would that look like?
Leanne: I think roughly I would say between that £45 to 60k I would say.
Claudia: Okay and a Head of People?
Leanne: So I would actually say in this environment that I'm in, would you typically have a head of people and a people director or a CPO? I'm not sure, for example. So the head of people thing is the most varied because it could either be that they are the person responsible for the people function and then it's the CEO. Or it could be that maybe in my example, I do people, talent and internal operations.
So that would might've been a point or would have been a point where there might be heads off between that. So I'd say if it is that standalone, not standalone is, and they don't have a team, but there's no one, um, between them and the CEO, that really could be anywhere. I would say between £65k to a £100K, possibly even more because the time, I think the title head of is really unique to the company.
Like look at the company I worked at before we use a VP. Our SLT at Patchwork is a myriad of titles from director, finance director, people director, director of product, but there's also a CTO. It's normally relevant to the individual, where they've come from, what their titles were, the experience that they've had, for example. I think a lot of organizations do use the head of people title to either signify that it is the person responsible for the function, but also if there is a people director, they might have had a head of people develop.
So I think you can even get over that £100k mark. for a Head of People role in tech, perhaps if there is not a people director or a CPO responsible.
Claudia: Okay, perfect. Thank you for those insights. I'm sure people will find that very valuable.
Actionable steps to get into a career in HR, People and Operations
Claudia: So we've got a few questions just around actionable steps to get into the career. So what three actionable steps would you recommend to those looking to get into a people function in tech?
Leanne: So I think there's that elephant in the room of like, you have to have experience to get a job you know it's like minimum years of experience which we know we avoid in role definitions and now yes it's hard to get that first role that you might be searching for but I spent a lot of time working with students and employability invited back my university as an alumni to talk about how I went into jobs that were not directly related to my degree, for example.
I think absolutely everything is transferable. If you have been a team leader, if you have been a manager, if you want to pivot into a role in people, I'm not going to say talent, we know it's a kind of a different different thing, we can always talk about talent if you want to as well, but on the people side, managing people, working with people, you can turn those experiences into matching a role definition for maybe an early stage people career role. You will have dealt with all the sorts of things that we support, employee wellbeing, people management, performance, you know, just sort of following what your company's approach to people management and attraction is and retention is as that team leader or a manager in whatever environment that you're coming from. That's a really transferable skill.
Identify transferable skills to a People Role
So to answer your actual specific question is what, what are the three things that they can do is actually look at what you've done and see how it transfers into a people role. And actually if you read many people role definitions, I think so much of being just a team leader or a manager is really translatable if you care or want to go into the role of course not every team leader or people manager wants to become a people professional but if you did that's number one.
Expand your HR knowledge with reading and listening to podcasts
I would also say is expand the knowledge and reading far beyond getting attracted to like qualifications we talked about CIPD earlier I have so many books under my desk right now that it would be silly to get them all out and show you, but reading, reading and learning or listening to TED talks and other podcasts, following companies that you aspire to work for will have usually have podcasts and other content that they are putting out and sort of reading and thinking outside the box of those traditional qualifications would probably set you apart from candidates that have those traditional qualifications, I would say.
Claudia: And can you recommend any particular podcasts or resources specifically?
Leanne: Yeah, in fact, there's some books. One of the books I read a number of years ago that I really enjoyed was No Rules Rules the Netflix model by Reed Hastings. That is one of my go-to. I always buy it for every one of my team members when they join.
Another book that was introduced to me quite a number of years ago, but I would say is still really relevant because it was very progressive and disruptive in a normal traditional environment. And it's obviously where the tech space kind of is. And that's a book called Nine Lies. I think it's called Nine Lies About Work. I'll have to check exactly what it's called. I think I gave it to a co-founder actually, so it's not under my desk.
Claudia: Exactly, in the description for anyone who is looking for both, for this podcast and the books as well.
Leanne: So like following people, I would say as well, Claudia, like there's a really wonderful, really experienced people consultant, people professional. Her name is JooBee Yeow. I follow her on LinkedIn, I sign up to her newsletter and her content, her video content as well is absolutely fantastic. So do I. There you go, so you know JooBee Yeow. So yeah, I would say that you can really find people who are talking about the things that you might actually think that makes sense. And that is the environment I want to go into. They'll definitely set people apart, I think, from the traditional routes.
Claudia: Fabulous. That is excellent advice. Thank you, Leanne.
Most unusual interview question Leanne has been asked
So finally, a bit of a curveball one for you here. But what is the most unusual interview question you've ever had? Or maybe you've ever asked?
Leanne: If I had, maybe, um, gosh, that is a real curve ball, Claudia. This one's fun. Um, I did get asked, um, how would I, as their incoming people director deal with banning and prohibiting relationships in the workplace?
Claudia: And how did you answer that one?
Leanne: Well, I had to answer it very tactfully because I'm actually married to someone I used to work with.
Leanne: I love this. Yeah, okay, so how did you answer it?
Leanne: I actually, I also kind of wondered why they thought it would be a problem that there could be relationships at work.
We spend more time at work than we do with our loved ones at home. Well, not me, literally clearly in the past, but you know, you know, we spend literally 40 plus hours of work at work. Maybe even when you take into commuting, if you do commute, it's longer out or you're spending more time working outside of work, then maybe you should do like me.
And it's like people naturally will meet people, they'll form friendships. Friendships can be as positive and as toxic as romantic relationships. People can fall out no matter what relationship they have. A relationship can be successful, all relationships have the same foundation. Mutual trust and respect, understanding, listening. All these things are a mark of a successful professional relationship, friendship, and romantic relationship. That can break down literally with your manager, with your friend, or with your partner.
So I tried to dig into what it was they thought were concerning. Was there, for example, something that had happened that went horribly wrong as a result of a relationship at work? They didn't really answer the question that I was asking back. They just didn't want it to happen. as far as I could tell. And I just politely said, I might not be the people director for you.
Leanne: I mean, look, at the end of the day, so many people have workplace relationships. We could do a whole podcast on workplace relationships.
Claudia: I mean, I'm definitely guilty of having a workplace relationship. Did it negatively affect my work when we broke up? Absolutely it did. So I can understand where they're coming from.
Leanne: But yeah, I think it's an interesting topic for sure.
Leanne: Well, you can deal with it in other ways. So, for example, if you have an approach to conduct and behaviour that you uphold, everyone respects everyone, you don't tolerate disrespect in the workplace. You don't tolerate unethical behaviour of any kind, bullying, you know, just unkindness in general. There are so many ways of dealing with it that still enable people to have relationships if they want to. And I just think that company maybe wasn't open to that more progressive way of dealing with things.
Claudia: Evidently not, or maybe they were and they just wanted to see how you'd answer it, but anyhow. Leanne, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for all your wonderful insights, talking through the journeys and learnings that you've had throughout your entire career, so thank you very much.
Leanne: That's okay Claudia, my pleasure.
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