How To Confidently Make A Career Change

Claudia: Welcome to the Waddyado podcast, where I sit down and speak with professionals having honest conversations about their careers, how they got into them, and advice for those looking to follow a similar path. But most of all, telling you, the listeners, what it's really like to do that job. In this episode, we sit down with Caroline Hickey, an experienced careers coach focused on helping those in their twenties thirties with their careers. Having had a successful career herself in advertising, working with global brands, Caroline shares her story of becoming a career coach, how to take the first step to changing your career, and how she takes a different approach to other coaches on the market. I hope you enjoy. Well, Caroline, welcome to the Waddyado podcast. It's an absolute delight to have you here today.

Caroline: Thank you so much. It's very nice to be here. Awesome.

Claudia: Well, Caroline, I would love to get into a little bit on your background and your career. Obviously, you've worked in advertising and you had a fantastic career then, and then you became a career coach. So really keen to dive into, you know, how you actually ended up as a careers coach and also, I guess, yeah, telling us a little bit more about how you actually make people make changes and really impact people's lives because it is a pretty phenomenal thing that I you do in my opinion. So, to get us started, how would you describe what you do for a living to someone who isn't in your field or industry right now?

The Realities Of Being A Career Coach

Caroline: So, I mean, if if anyone has ever watched anything that I've ever made in terms of content, this sentence is about to be the most overheard thing they've ever heard. But in short, in a nutshell, it's that my name is Caroline. I'm a career coach, and I specialize in helping people in their twenties thirties work out what they wanna do with their careers. So what that means in a nutshell is essentially that there are really funny moments I've I've always found at the top of our career where we sit there and go, oh god. Like, no one taught us this in school. No one taught us to go, okay. How do I know what I wanna do? How do I know you know, is this the right thing for me? For some people, they sit there and go, okay. I've got myself onto a own career path, and suddenly, now that I've had a bit of experience, this actually isn't the right thing.

For some people, they sit there and go, okay. Now I'm doing, you know, my first salary negotiation or I'm looking to do my first big job change. Don't know how to do that, you know, because no one teaches these things. It might be that we're sitting in an organization and we've got a boss that's a bit of a nightmare, or we've got a colleague that's a bit of a nightmare, or we're becoming a manager and we're becoming the boss ourselves going, oh god. No one taught me how to do that.

And so what I do is I work 1 on 1 with people as kind of part of their career development, process, and I basically help them with giving them tailored support to go, okay. How do you make these career decisions as smoothly as possible? You know, how do you make them from a place where you go, I feel as confident as possible that I've really worked out what I wanna do, and I'm making them from a place of going, actually, this feels like it's gonna be the best thing for me. But knowing that you've got kinda someone alongside you to help you make that choice because it can be quite it can be quite a lonely process trying to work out this whole careers thing when there's absolutely no road map to it at all. Absolutely.

And I think you are that wonderful, like, helping hand for people who need that extra support, where they're feeling maybe a little bit lost and need that guidance. So I think you did a wonderful thing.

Claudia: And just to add a bit of context here, I actually came across Caroline on TikTok because she does amazing videos, so you should check her out. Caroline, can you just share your handle?

Caroline: For sure. So my handle on TikTok and also on Instagram is at what happens now dotco. So I run an organization, called What Happens Now Coaching, basically, in response to that question that we all get to where something happens in our career and we go, shit. What happens now? And so that is that handle across absolutely everything if you want to go and follow to your heart's content.

Claudia: Love it. And I guess Waddyado kind of is a similar concept with regards to the name. You know? It's like, what happens next? What do I do next? Yeah. Basically. So I love that. Brilliant. Okay. Great. So, let's get into the early years of your career and, I guess, understand a little bit more about what you did and what influenced you to go into that career path in Firebase.

Starting Out In Advertising

Caroline: For sure. So before before I was a career coach, I used to work in advertising. So I was working in creative agencies and dialing it all the way back to when most of us start to make these decisions about our career.

I was sitting at university going, shit. Need to start thinking about this career thing. I was desperate to move to London because I thought, you know, that's what that's what you do. You leave you leave uni. You go to London.

You get the job. That'll be fine. And I was thinking, okay. Well, you know, what do I like? Grew up in Devon, and there wasn't a lot of lot on, to be totally honest.

So from a young age, had loved kind of theater, had loved TV, and was desperate to get into that field. Learned very quickly it was quite, competitive. It was quite tricky. I didn't have a lot of experience in kind of theater production, TV production. Didn't quite know how to do it.

So sat there going, okay. Well, you know, what makes me happy? Okay. I like working on projects. I like seeing the end result of my stuff.

So after a little bit of deliberation that, I'll be honest, wasn't the most well founded, thing, I sat there and went, oh, advertising. Advertising's on TV. Advertising makes a a physical thing that I can look at and go, ta da. I did I did that. Okay.

I'll I'll give that a go. And I looked for work experience by, again, not the most scientific of processes. I basically googled the top 50 advertising agencies in London, wrote one blanket email, basically, going, I'm a student. I need experience. Please take me, with slightly more eloquent wording, sent it to all of them.

1 of them invited to see me. 1 of them invited me down to London. Came down. I remember sitting in this interview going, I don't even really know what an advertising agency does. Clearly bluffed my way through that well enough that they agreed to have me for 3 months in the 2nd year of university.

Came down, worked in London, and then ended up, after university, getting a job there. And I think it's probably safe to say 2 to 3 months in, I sat there and went, I don't think this is the right thing. I'm not convinced this is it. But I was sitting there going, well, you know, it's quite cool. You know, I was working on a big beauty brand.

I was getting loads of free product. I was going on shoots. I was living in London, which obviously have been my goal. And I was sitting there going, this is it. Like, you know, it's fine.

It's fine. You'll get there. You'll get there. And I worked in the client servicing team, so looking after the marketing teams on behalf of the brands and then working on behalf of the agency to kind of get the work done. And I although I sat there going, not convinced.

Not convinced this is it. As I say, it's it gave me access to something that I'd really wanted, which was living that big city life. So I was like, right. It's fine. You, you know, you'll find a way to to get into it.

Leave jobs, went to a different agency, had an opportunity there where I sat there going, okay. Well, if I don't think this is forever, maybe I'll get a slightly more hybrid role. So I was going, okay. Well, I know I don't wanna work in client services forever, so I got myself into the new business kind of business development team as well. So I did a 50 50 split.

Basically, with I think in the back of my head, if I was really honest with myself, I always knew I'd wanted to run my own business. So I was sitting there going, okay. Well, I've learned how to work with clients. I've learned how to run projects. I'll learn how to actually, you know, do kind of the business development, do the sales side of things, do the lead generation.

And, I mean, looking back now, it did put me in very good stead for what I do now, but I would be lying to you if I said it was a really, like, thought out master plan. And so I ended up staying there. I worked there for about 6 years in total, which at the time was absolutely frowned upon in terms of career advice. So everyone going, you need to be moving every 2 years. You need to be you know, that's how you get promoted.

That's how you get, like everyone was basically going, sorry. You've been there for 6 years. I was like, yes. Oops. But they were a lovely team.

They kept offering me loads of, you know, loads of different experiences. As I say, I was working across different departments, and it it really served me in that way. Fast forward a few years. And and throughout all this time, I'm sitting there going, not sure this is what I wanna do forever, but, again, it's right for now. So that feel always always stayed with me.

Get to COVID, go on furlough because being part of that business development team, there is no business to develop, when the world isn't doing anything. So sitting on furlough, living on my own in London, going, okay. I've suddenly got all this time on my hands. Lots of times to really kind of think about, right. You know?

What do I what do I do? This is kind of my moment here because I don't think I've ever actually said this publicly ever of I actually resigned on the day we went into lockdown. About 2 o'clock in the afternoon, I sat sat down with my CEO. I said, thank you so much for this opportunity. I know that this isn't, you know, the right field for me.

I need to work out what I wanna do. And he looked at me and I love him forever for this. He looked at me and just went, I appreciate that. I don't know what's about to happen in the world, and I can't, with good faith, accept that for the moment. So stay till this this levels out, and then I'll help you get a new job.

I'll help you, you know, work out what you wanna do. Fast forward, I've stayed there for a couple more years. But in that time where I was sitting on furlough, I was thinking, okay. You know, this is the moment I can work out finally and have that headspace that I've been craving of going, what do I wanna do? You know, it's something that comes up with my clients all the time.

They go, I know it's not this, but I don't have time. So suddenly have that gift of time to go, what do I like? Realized essentially that the only thing I did like was working with my team. I loved my team. I loved developing them.

I loved seeing them do well. That was kind of supporting them was the best bit about this job. I didn't care what we were making.

Is Advertising As Glamorous As Imagined?

Claudia: And what what do you think was the biggest, I guess, difference between reality and what you expected of the job and why you think it didn't really work out?

Caroline: I think I thought it would be more glamorous, maybe.

Claudia: I've had I had that on my first episode of my podcast with the creative director, and he said it's not all glamorous as much as people think it is. No.

Caroline: That's funny you say that. It's very much not. I think advertising I mean, advertising has this famed reputation of being very, very fun, and it was very fun.

But there were lots of elements of it that were not very fun. There were lots of working extremely late late nights sitting with a spreadsheet, managing angry and upset clients. There were lots of elements of it that weren't about making the thing. Like, they were overarchingly, but by the time I got to the end of my job, I was just doing a lot of kind of forecasting and a lot of kind of profitability tracking and all these things that that you're making the stuff wasn't necessarily being done by me anymore. And I was sitting there going, I loved making things.

I love sitting on the tube and going, I made that. I love turning on the telly and going, I made that. Like, that is that's still cool. And there's still stuff that runs now that's been kind of repeatedly, that I go, I made that, and that is cool. But that's probably that was for me, by the end of it, was about 20%, and 80% of it was a lot of Excel, and a lot of PowerPoint and a lot of stuff that, as I say, wasn't quite as fun and exciting the further up that food chain.

I was getting it all got a little bit more serious than it did when I was down at the bottom having quite a nice time. Makes sense. Okay.

Completing Further Education While In Fulltime Employment

Claudia: So, obviously, you hand in your notice, and you actually ended up staying for another 2 years. And then so what was the point where you decided to make the pivot Because I know that, obviously, you went on to study. Right? So did you do that alongside your work? Yeah. At work?

Yeah. I did. So I sat on furlough, realized I had to go back to, realized I had to go back to work. They brought me back. I was very lucky in that in that respect.

But in that time, I'd gone, okay. I think I wanna work with people. You know, what jobs work with what jobs work with people? I sat there and suddenly looked around and basically was like, right. I need to talk to someone.

I need to find someone who's gonna help me make this decision. Looking around, I couldn't find anyone who's really specializing in this early careers kind of decision making process and this early careers kind of pivot point. Coaching because of the the nature of the industry, a lot of the time focus a lot on kind of those c suite, on those CEOs, on those senior leaders because, to put it so so bluntly, that's where the cash is. Right? The cash is where big corporate organizations will pay you to train their leaders.

Fantastic. That didn't help me. And so I couldn't find anyone. And I was sitting there going, I can't be the only person. So I started to, you know, talk to friends going, I'm having this question.

And they were like, oh my god. Yeah. I don't like my job either, but I don't really know what to do. Like, what can you get out of it? Probably not.

And I just basically ended up talking to everybody I knew and was like, oh, this isn't just me. And so I started to look up, okay. Well, how would you train? Because that's the other thing about coaching. You don't need a formal qualification to call yourself a coach.

Like, if you wanted to turn around tomorrow and go, right. Actually, I'm a coach. You could do it. Like, there's no it's a very funny industry, and that ethic, he never sat with me. So then I started to go, okay.

Well, how do you know? How how do you get qualified? And for me, I was sitting there going, right. I'm gonna go back to I'm gonna go back to uni. So I got a postgraduate certificate in career coaching and then subsequently after that, decided to turn that into a master's.

But I did do that whilst working full time, having to balance all of that. Did the 1st year working 5 days a week whilst doing the certificates at the same time, which was pretty pretty spicy. By the time I got to seeing the masters, I went down to 4 days a week mainly because I'm not sure my brain can handle it anymore. It was it was it was quite intense, if I'm completely honest. So how many hours a week were you doing actually on the course?

I would go to university either one night a week for about 3 hours. And then every month, I'd have a Sunday no. A Saturday even. Go every month, have a Saturday, full day, 9 till 5. But those are just kind of active seminars and active, lectures and stuff.

We'd then have to be writing all the essays, doing practice coaching, work. So by the end of it, I was probably doing about 10 hours 10 hours a week of extra extra stuff, which then led to a quite antisocial couple years, really, but I'm not the person. Absolutely. Okay. Great.

So then, obviously, that took you to where you are now ultimately. So what we've I guess taking a step to become self employed anyway is a big feat. So how did you overcome the feeling of, like, oh god. What am I doing? Were you just so excited to do it that that didn't matter?

Talk us through how you felt during that time. I was absolutely terrified. I don't know if it was ever I don't know if it was exciting, but it was absolutely terrifying. So once I did that postgraduate certificate, I went down to 4 days a week. And on that 4th on that final day of the week, what I would do is essentially try and see a couple of, like, couple of hours of client work in and then do my uni work on top.

Work, god love them at the time, thought I was doing all of my master stuff all the time, but I was actually seeing a couple of clients. And what I was trying to do, essentially, was trying test case going, will this make me enough money? And, basically, running a bit of an experiment, really, before, you know, throw everything out the window and just go, oh, sorry. I'll just give it a go. I I'm quite naturally a risk averse person.

I'm not someone who which, to be honest, is not always the best trait in a self employed person as it's quite a up and up and down business and quite an up and down way of living. But I that's essentially how I did it. I basically was like, right. Let's test this first. I don't massively believe in some of that narrative that you see online of going, essentially, just fuck it.

Sorry if I can't swear on it. Going, you know, just quit. It'll find you. Like, I I don't believe in that. I was you know, I'd been saving.

I had saved up enough money to make sure I could cover myself for a while before I went full time. But whilst it was always exciting, it was always scary, and I'd be kinda doing doing it a disservice if I tried to paint it as being only an exciting process. It was terrifying at times. Yeah. I can imagine.

I mean, I felt the same when I launched my recruitment agency. It was absolutely terrifying wondering if I'd have consistent clients all the time and if I'd be able to pay my bills. So I completely, sympathize with that. So that leads me nicely on to now. How do you approach that transition from obviously having well, actually, let's start with what do clients come to you firstly with?

What problem? Main main mix of things being that is on the because I started online telling my story quite a lot, I get lots of people who wanna do career change. I get a lot of career change work, and I would say about 50% of my work is career change. The other side of my work, a lot of it can be around kind of job search, supporting through that. And for other people, it's about growing into being a leader in a business for the first time.

So that might be about learning how to communicate more effectively, being a manager for the first time, learning essentially how to feel more in control as they kind of develop their career rather than waiting for those promotions to happen, for them or waiting for organizations to give them the the support that they need. But it's that nice split of people who are sitting in that space of going, shit. I chose this one path, and now I'm in the wrong place. And people who are going, okay. I've landed in the right place, but I wanna learn how to make it better for me.

Okay. That makes sense. So do you deal with both corporates and also, like, individuals themselves? So do you cover, like, team training as well as individuals? Yeah.

Yeah. So Brilliant. I spend a lot of time working working 1 on 1 with people because of the lack of provision of, support in the space. Lots of people that's why things like TikTok, social media, things like that are so important because that's where people are looking for this type of information now. So that's oftentimes how I end up with my private private clients.

And then, yeah, I also work with corporate teams working with them through group training both around kind of leadership management, but as I say, covering loads of stuff in terms of kind of communication, personal brand, negotiation, all all of those good things. It's a nice nice little split. That is probably a quite good model, I think, in order to balance it out and make sure that you have both streams of income. So that makes sense. Great.

So, let's talk about the career changes then. So, I guess, what practical steps and or what what is the process that you go with or go through? Let me rephrase that. What is the process that you go through with career changes? Yeah.

For sure. So when they come when they come to me, what we the way I always describe it to them is the first thing we'll often do is look backwards and go, okay. Well, how the hell did we get here? You know? And having a little bit of a reflective space to go, right.

Looking at your career to take, you know, what career what career decisions did you make that got you here? You know, what motivated that? And then when we made those decisions, how much of that worked? How much of it didn't? You know?

What are the things that going forward, we go, okay. We really wanna keep this because this makes you feel like a great version of you, but perhaps in the wrong space. But, also, you know, if we could, if from tomorrow, I could click my fingers and go, right. You never have to do it again. You know, what's that stuff that doesn't work for you?

What do we get rid of? And that goes kind of on a bit of a scale, really. It goes from the emotional side of things, which is, you know, how you wanna feel when you're at work. What does success look like for you? What are your values that you wanna be working in alignment with?

And what's gonna keep you motivated and interested and satisfied, through to kind of the middle stuff, which is around kind of your strengths, your weaknesses, your skills that you either are going, yep. I feel really good at this. I feel really strong or going, I wanna be doing more of this. And sometimes there's that tension point between going, you might be really good at something, but do you actually enjoy doing it? Different question.

And so getting really clear on that and going, actually, if you have this power to redesign it, which is, you know, what the beautiful thing about a career change is, it's that really stepping into your power to go, I can make this what I want it to be, is sitting there and going, hey. How do you really wanna be spending your time? What does that look like? All the way down to the really rational stuff of going, okay. You know, where do you wanna work?

How much do you wanna earn? What's your office split? You know? Do you wanna just work remotely? What does all that look like?

And the way I always describe to clients is kind of bit like doing a jigsaw. Right? You do the edges first. You do the straight bits, and that's kind of what that work is. That's all the information that oftentimes we have actually readily available to ourselves because the answers come from within us.

But a lot of the time, it's about supporting them to kind of tease that out. It's a lot of a lot of thought process and a lot of work that lots of people haven't done before. It's not it's not a it's a different type of conversation to talking to friends, talking to family. Coaching is a different space for that, which is really useful to help lift the lid on those things. Then what we do is we sit there and go, okay.

What does that mean when we turn it into ideas about different paths? You know? What does that look like? How do we sit there and go, right, what ideas have we got in terms of kind of what do we know about, but also what do we what do we never thought of? You know, what is out there?

Because there are over a 100,000, registered occupations in the UK. So of and that starts from about 2020. So there's definitely more than that now. So, of course, there's gonna be stuff out there that you've never heard of. And lots of the time, people think that that's a negative.

It's not. Like, you've never experienced it, so how would you know? So it's about then doing, okay. You know, if we're doing our jigsaw puzzle and we've now got some holes in the middle, what do we need to do to fill that in? You know, who do we need to talk to?

What research do we need to be doing? Know, what networking do we need to be doing? How do we plug in those gaps essentially for them to sit there and go, right. Based on what I need, based on what I know about what's out there, I'm gonna back myself to have thought through all the options, and I'm gonna go for this. And the important thing for the most of the time is to know that if they choose something and it doesn't quite work out how they planned, it doesn't quite go the way they want, To know that they've gone through this process, they've gained the skills so that if, heaven forbid, that ever happens, they've got the skills to then make another decision.

You know, we always say the next job you get most likely will not be the last job you get. You know, you you have the power to keep making these decisions, and part of that process is about empowering them and supporting them to feel like they can do that versus feeling trapped in in the career that they're in that's not really working for them. Yeah. That makes total sense. And this this is one of the reasons why I launched this podcast was to shine a light on careers and what they're actually like to do by having chats with professionals in lots of different types of digital careers to really get under the hood and shine a light on what it's really like.

Yeah. Exactly. People can make more informed decisions. So, no. That's great.

So, can you give us some examples of people that you've worked with, obviously, confidentially, where you've managed to make an impact on their career? Yeah, totally. I've got my favorite one only because in my head, when I learned about what this doing this career was actually like, it was so different to what I thought it would be. But I worked with, one client who was working in personal, injury claims. So on the, you know, you know, with no fees, you know, have you had an accident at work, falling off the ladder, all those ads.

And she was in there going, you know, this isn't this isn't the right space for me. And all we did and as we worked through it, she we basically landed her in a place where she moved from working in that space to being a private investigator, which in my head, I was like, oh, what does that mean? Mainly because in my head, I've got, you know, people sitting in cars behind newspapers going little little eye holes parked out going The movies give us that, don't they, like, that's exactly what we think. A little bit exactly, but helping her transition into that space was was really exciting. Other times, you know, I've got clients who've, you know, been working in things like law.

I seem to get a lot of lawyers. I get quite a lot of teachers. Can we just go back to the personal lawyer to investigate one? I'm I'm absolutely fascinated by that. So, how how did you go about making that transition then?

How did you work through that to get to the prime investigator? So what we did was we essentially sat there and went, okay. Looking at your role now, you know, what works? And for her, she was like, you know, I like being able to make a difference in people's lives. I like being able to see that the work I do has that level of impact.

But what she didn't like was going, okay. Well, I'm working on, you know, 17 cases at the same time, so I feel too I feel too thinly spread. I feel like I can't really pay enough attention to people, and that was basically sitting at a sort of an ethical boundary of her where she's sitting there going, I'm very conscious of that. These are people's lives. You know?

This is the biggest thing in their day, and I find it really hard that it's not the biggest thing in my day. And that didn't sit that well with her because she's sitting there going, ultimately, these people, you know, they've got a lot going on for them, and I wanna do my best, but I just can't. And so what we then did was sit there and go look at kind of her, look at her area, look at what was around her. And she was going, okay. Well, I've always been interested in this.

And she had a friend who had worked in that space, and she was going, but, you know, it'll never be for me. I could never do that. And that's something I find that comes up a lot is people go, I have all these ideas, but, oh, so and so does it, and I don't know how I do that. Or I've heard of it, but I don't know how I do it. Or they make these assumptions of going, oh, but I assume, you know, I it's like that.

And that's one of the questions I ask most frequently is going, how do you know that? Because a lot of the time, they go, oh, well, you know, it is what I've seen on TV or it's, you know, I've got a friend who did that or I don't know. I just think it would be like this. And what we got her to do is essentially start to build some networks and build some contacts with people who were working in the private investigation space, and she started to go and have coffees with them. And she started to go and have a sit down with them and just ask the question because a lot of the time, it's really hard to work out quite from kind of reading online and not having the opportunity, you know, like with this podcast, to listen to people actually talk about their jobs.

There's often not enough kind of information from real people about what it is to do these things. And so she started to go and have kind of coffees with them, build out that network only mainly from a place of going, I'm just curious. I'm gonna have to scratch that edge. And by by the end of one of them, one of the guys went, Ashley, I've got a position opening up in one of my surveillance teams. How would you feel about it?

And she was like, oh, right. Okay. And we sat there in that moment because you're sitting there going, shit. It's just become very real. And that's also one of the things is most of the time with career change, we have these big ideas.

You know, we have these ideas going, I'd love to do I'd love to do this. I'd love to do that. And what I sometimes find is with people, when it becomes real, that becomes one of the moments where they go, oh, okay. Actually, I don't know. But we sat there with her, and I said, well, you know, what happens if you don't do it?

You know? What happens if I see you in a year and you haven't done it? How would you feel? And she said, why do you regret it? You know?

What if what if, you know, what if was, you know, the big question. And so she went for it. And in fact, 18 months later, she's still there. She's she's she's loving it, and she she loves the fact that she can work on one case at a time. She can deep dive into one thing at a time, get really kind of in it, and finds it incredibly rewarding.

And so it's really it actually was a really kind of natural step of her abusing lots of transferable skills and her knowledge around, you know, the legality sides of of this, but actually being able to do it in a way that fit the way she likes to work better and fit with who she is as a person better. That makes total sense and sounds like a great story, to be honest. It makes me feel go of jealous. I love that. I think a lot of people who are on you know, you you see a lot even on social media these days about what are people's last dying wish, and it's all about something that they didn't do rather than what they did do and having those regrets of not trying something.

So there you go. Let's hope that you you you obviously enable people to make those steps, which is wonderful to hear. Okay. So, now one of the biggest issues I think that people probably face when they look to do a career change is obviously they probably got to a certain point in their late twenties, thirties, for example, of a certain salary and a lifestyle that comes with that. And also they might have a mortgage.

They might have kids to support. And so then they think, oh, no. I'm stuck because I've reached this level of an income, and now I can't make that change. So my question to you is, how do people pivot whilst taking into account, you know, potentially a drop in salary? Yeah.

It's a great question. And there were, I guess, there were 2 parts of it, really. The first one is more of an overarching thing about career change, as a whole, which is career change is a slower process than people think it is. The average career change can take up to 2 years. And part of that process is is in response to this, which is that we have to find a way to do it sustainably.

And some of that process is, you know, the work that I do, people are going, why yeah. Where on earth do you wanna go? But then some of it is going, okay. When we're really boiling it down to the realities of it, we might not be able to afford to do it now. We might have to do some upskilling.

There might be some preparatory steps that have to happen before you can hand in that notice and go, see you. I'm going over there. It's because it is a bigger process than perhaps it is made out to be online and things that make it look very, very easy in 30 seconds. You know, it is it's it's a it takes consideration, particularly as you say, when when you decide to make changes in your career, the responsibilities that you already have do not disappear. The parenting responsibilities that you have don't disappear.

If you are caring for elderly relatives, that doesn't disappear. Your mortgage doesn't disappear. Your rent doesn't disappear. All those things stay with you, and so part of career change is working out how you can make that happen whilst maintaining those things. And as I say, that's why it's a more measured process.

When it comes to the financial side of things, it all depends on what level you're going in at. You know? There's a world where if you are going into something new, there is a chance that, yes, you might have to take a pay cut, and I can't say anything, you know, other than that. I can't pretend that you can go in at midway in something that you you've never done before if you haven't got the right transferable skills or the experience. So then it becomes about, okay.

Well, how do we up those things, and how do we up, you know, the education that you've got? How do we make sure that your kind of skill set is standing out as best as possible to help lessen that? So that's the first thing to do and have a bit of a think about. The second thing to have a bit of a think about is really to get to know your money. Lots of people come to me and they go, okay.

Well, you know, I can't take a pay cut. I'm I'm really nervous like that, and that is absolutely absolutely fair. The thing I often get them to do is have a bit of a think about, right. You know, if we broke it into 3 buckets, the first one being, what is the absolute bare minimum that you need? You know?

What is the bare minimum for you to be able to run your life, to keep the lights on, feed yourself, have everything you need to be able to live your life? That's kind of number number 1. Number 2 is then going, okay. What would you want to have to be able to live your life comfortably? You know, what is that number?

What is the number where you go, actually, I'm living my comfortable life as I have it now. That's what I that's what I need. And then the third number is going, if I never worried about anything, if I didn't have to worry about any kind of financial stuff, what would that look like? And getting to know those numbers helps you then be able to work out, okay, what opportunities feel worth it? Because we all wanna sit there and, you know, go, that's fine.

I'll just start again at the bottom and go and, you know, go and earn $20. There's a world where you might not be able to do that. And that's a real can be quite a tricky thing to make that decision around, but, ultimately, it's part of this decision making process and sometimes money does, you know, it does change that. What people, again, to that point around assumption is going, get to know what salaries exist in that space. Really get to know it because a lot of the times, again, people go, I can't do that.

It doesn't pay enough. Okay. How much do you that do you know to be true? That's about then doing that research. Really, when you're looking at job specs, track every salary that you see and work it out.

Because then if you know their numbers, you know your numbers, you're able to then start to cross reference and go, okay. How do I make that work? Can it work? And then make a plan from there. Oh, yeah.

I I totally agree with that. And I think that there's a lot to say about looking at just beyond the immediate role that you would go into because you might, with your transferable skill set, actually get promoted really quickly because you've already got amazing life experience. You've already got those skills, and, therefore, you might be able to jump a few rungs of that ladder on the salary scale fairly quickly as well. Mhmm. Because I do see that so much, you know, as a recruiter, where people have started off on, like, a 30, 40 k salary, let's say, for example, as like a sales development representative in tech sales, let's say, then, you know, you could become an AE within 2 years, and you've jumped up to 50 k as a basic salary, 60 k.

And then you can go up to a 100 k on a basic salary alone, and then you can double your, you know, on target earnings, ultimately. So, and those I see those happen within a matter of a few year like, probably 5 years from that, starting off as 30, 40 all the way up to a 100 k plus. So, you know, there is quite fast growth across some salaries. I mean, if, obviously, money's a motivator, then tech sales is a good one to go into, but it's not always the right thing for everybody. So I just want to use that as an example.

Yeah. Okay. Great. So could you talk through some I guess, what three actionable steps would you recommend to those looking to make a pivot today? Yeah.

So first thing I would always do is before you start trying to take any action on it, is actually to just stop and look at your life at it as it is at the moment and, basically, work out what are you doing with your time. So have a look back at the few weeks that you've just lived. Go, right. Looking at my time, where where am I spending it? So how much am I at work?

How much am I kind of chilling at home? How much am I at the gym? How much am I kind of with friends, with family? And just work out how you're proportioning your time. Because one of the biggest things that we often see is people have these massive ideas, and then they go, well, I wanna do this, but I have no time available or I'm gonna struggle to make time to actually get there.

Because they're sitting there going, well, I wanna get there tomorrow. Well, that means that's the only thing you ever do ever from now on. And so it's about sitting there and going, okay. How much time have you got available? Knowing that and then being able to essentially work out, how do I make a plan with the hours that I've got available to me that I can stick to to then make it happen?

So that's the first thing is get really honest with yourself. Because if you can only do an hour a week, that's better than not doing anything. Like, that's fine. But, you know, we have that thing of everyone going, you need to be hustling. You need to be kind of you wanna get a new job, it has to be a full time job.

For some people, you know, that's not feasible. So as I say, an hour a week is better than no hours a week because if you do, you know, every week for a month, that's only 4 hours more than you'd ever done before. And so you're already in a much stronger position if you can understand that, but it's having a little bit of an honest look at that. The second thing is to sit there and go, okay. I feel unhappy.

Great. But why? Where is that coming from? Because lots of the time people come to me and go, I hate my job. My job is shit.

Okay. What is it about your job that's shit? What drives that? Because it's actually really unlikely that all of it is awful. Really boil it down to and spend that time to work through what are the things that I don't like.

Is it the people? Is it the place? Is it the work itself? Get into that feeling. Get comfortable with digging into that feeling of going, what isn't working?

Because if you don't know what's not working, you can't fix it. Rub it being shit is not a fixable thing. Honestly, I speak to, obviously, so many candidates about what their motivators are for changing roles, and a lot of people just haven't maybe spoken to their current boss or their manager about what changes could actually be made or what frustrations that they have. And then they, like, leave it to the last minute, hand in their notice, and then the managers are like, well, if you'd just spoken to me about this, we could have probably come to some form of solution. And so my recommendation to anybody is if you do I know this probably goes a bit counterintuitive as a recruiter, but, genuinely, if you go and speak to your manager about the issues that you have, then there probably will be a resolution, even if it's down to, like, getting a pay rise.

And I know that you coach people through through negotiating that, you know, that could be and then, you know, you go through the rigmarole of going through an interview process, then you get an account offer because and they actually match you. You could have just asked for that in the in the first place and maybe demonstrate it. I mean, what well, I'll ask you, actually. Know, what advice would you give to people looking to get a pay rise? Oh, good good question.

And the fur the first one being, work out what your worth is. You know? It is not enough to walk into a room and go, I think I want this. You know? I think I deserve this.

Well, that's great. And, like, you know, you most probably do. But the thing you've gotta do is work out what your worth looks like in the eyes of the person that you are talking to. So sitting there and going, okay. When you work through everything that you've achieved in the, you know, previous months up to the last year, where is the impact that that's had?

You know, where have you made that difference? Really get to know the facts of what you are delivering because the key about negotiation is to lead with facts rather than feelings here. So we wanna be able to sit in that space and go, I think I, you know, I deserve this because I have done x, y, zed in the past few months. That then also coupled with get to know what's not in your organization, as you say. Lots and lots of places will have, you know, roles at your level that you can use to help leverage that.

That doesn't necessarily mean you have to go through that whole process of interviewing for them, but know what's out there. Know where you sit in that market because then you can go, I've delivered x, y, zed for you. I really feel that I deserve x based on this because that based on what I'm kind of delivering for you against what's being paid out in the market, that's what feels fair, and see what they do with that. But until you know those facts, it's much it's it's it's a tricky process to go in and to go, I really think I deserve it. And they go, well, I think I deserve it too, but what are you gonna do?

Know the facts of what you're asking for before you go in. One of my tips is probably a little bit sneaky, but and it probably doesn't even help recruiters again, but at the same time, I think this is a great piece of advice. So, obviously, on LinkedIn, you can make your profile open to work, but obviously not show it, externally. So it'll only show to recruiters. And one way that you can benchmark your salary or what your market value is is by putting open to work.

And then when recruiters do reach out to you, simply ask, you know, what are the budgets for this particular role? Can you tell talk me through the responsibilities of this position? Obviously, make it relatable to what you do and if it's relevant or not. And then also, obviously, ask for the salary. Now I'm very explicit when I approach all candidates, and I always put salary within the messages because, otherwise, you're kinda shooting in the dark there.

So that's a great way to find out if what your market value is, and, also, obviously, check out job specs and stuff like that online, but that's my tip for the day, ladies. I love that about stealing that. Like, I know it's a bit sneaky, but, yeah. You love it. Words not a lot harder.

Exactly. Great. So, what three resources would you recommend to people who are looking to make a career pivot? Yeah. So the first thing is when it comes to career pivoting, the most important thing, I would think, is real people.

So by that, I mean, talk to real people, look at your network, and it doesn't have to be a professional network. It can be your mate's mom. Like, talk to real people. They are actually the most valuable resources that you have in terms of multiple reasons. 1, you never know who knows what.

You never know who knows who. But the third thing being, the more you practice talking about what you wanna do, the easier you will find it to convey. And so the the first time an interview shouldn't be the first time that you talk about what you wanna do. Start talking to people about it. Get practicing explaining why.

Get practicing, working out why that's gonna be the right move for you and have those conversations. So that's the first thing is real people. You know, real people in your in your personal life, in your professional life, use them. Have those conversations. Second thing, I love a podcast.

I live for a podcast. You can find a podcast on absolutely anything. And, you know, and this, you know, this platform's a really good example of it. People are so willing to share their stories. And one of the things I find with lots and lots of clients is they go, oh, I don't know if I wanna do that job because I read the job spec and it all just is corporate jargon.

Nothing speak. Like, how the hell am I meant to know? So, again, there's a theme here, right, of real people, real conversations. Listen to podcasts. Listen to people actually talk about what happened to them, and listen to people actually kind of discussing what their jobs are like.

They are the most amazing free resource, so go and use them. So that's the second one. The third one also is, this sounds stupid, but sometimes your best resource is your own mind. A lot of the time, we don't create a space to think about what we want. We don't create the intentional space to sit in the choir and think about, how do I feel about this?

You know? Why do I feel this way? Where is that coming from? And sometimes that can be, you know, useful to do with the help of, you know, a professional like me. For some people, it's a professional like a therapist.

You know? Depending on where you're at, Having someone to talk about and sit in that space with you and guide you through that process can be really helpful, but it's also something you can do on your own. But it's being mindful to create the space to actually think about what you want because we live in a hugely connected world where we are overstimulated all the time. We have all this information coming at us all the time, and it's really important to create that space to work out, you know, what do I want? Where is that coming from?

Is that based on what I wanna do? Is that based on what I've been reading a lot of? Is it based on what the TikTok algorithm has been feeding me for the past 2 weeks? Is it based on what my mom wants? You know, all those big questions, really hard to find the answer to unless you create the quiet space in your life to be able to work out the answers and to listen to yourself.

I love that. Brilliant. Wonderful advice, though, I have to say. Loving it. Okay.

So, finally, what is the best piece of advice that you've ever received from a mentor in your career? Oh, can my dad be a mentor? He'll love Absolutely. Yeah. My, when I worked in advertising, I was always ahead of myself.

I was always ahead of myself. I was more senior than I should have been. I got promoted quite quickly. You know? I was always doing I was always doing more.

And what that meant is that at the at the unhelpfully, at the bottom of my career, it gave me this expectation that I was always gonna keep getting promoted, and I was always gonna keep getting these opportunities. And I remember I went into an annual review once, and I didn't get promoted. And I was gutted. I was really gutted. Like, maybe it was the first time my ego had taken a huge hit, and I was like, oh my god.

But I really thought I deserved it. And I spoke to my dad, and my dad went, which is the best advice that I hold on to to this day, which has stirred me in such good stead for being self employed of going, it's better to get an opportunity when you're ready than it is to arrive too soon because we live in a world where we want more and more and more and more. But the problem is if you get somewhere before you're ready, it's really hard to then ask for advice. It's really hard to get to get to a level where you suddenly sit there and go, shit. I should know.

And he always said to me, it's much easier to wait a year. Learn what you don't know that you don't know. Yeah. That that makes sense. I'm gonna challenge you on this.

Mhmm. Obviously, a lot of people talk about pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, and and I actually specifically read a newsletter yesterday from I can't actually remember who it was from, but it literally said in, like, the subject, you need to do things before you're ready in order to grow. So what would you say to someone who just who says that? Yeah. No.

Totally. And to be honest, this also sound counterintuitive because that's really valid, but we talk about it as opportunities exist in 3 zones. Right? So we've all heard of the comfort zone. You know, that that sits over here where that's where we feel safe.

The middle zone is what we call that stretch zone. So the stretch zone is opportunities where we sit there and go, oh god. Okay. This feels a bit scary. But it's not all the way to the 3rd zone, which is called the panic zone, which is basically where you sit there and go, oh, fuck.

So when we sit there and go, it's better to arrive too soon. That's about not jumping from your comfort zone to your panic zone of basically going, I've gone too far. You will never be totally ready, but you'll be ready enough to be able to handle it. And that's for the opportunities that sit in that stretch space. Those are the things that help us grow, but they help us grow in a way that is productive versus sending us all the way into that state of panic that make you go, I can't do anything.

And because I'm in that state, I actually can't take on anything cognitively because my brain is going, all the time. Well, Caroline, it's been an absolute delight to have you on today. And thank you so much for all your wonderful wisdom and actionable steps that people can take. I know that a lot of people find this incredibly useful, so thank you so much. You're very welcome.

Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for listening to the what do you do podcast. Whether you're looking for a job or ready to find your latest inspired hire, head over to what do you do dot com forward slash jobs or click the link in the description. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button and share with anyone you think would love this episode.