How To Transition Your Career Into People & HR | Global VP of People, Sarah-Emily Oades

Introducting Sarah-Emily

Claudia: Sarah Emily, welcome to the Waddyado podcast. It's an absolute delight to have you here. Thank you. For all the listeners, this is actually our 2nd podcast recording that we've done. Sarah Emily slash SE was on the Scaling Up with Ortus Talent podcast and gave some really amazing insights into scaling up series, well, VC backed businesses that she's worked for. And so if you're really interested in hearing more about that, you can check that out on, Spotify and Apple Music as well. So, thank you very much for returning and speaking with me again today.

SE: Pleasure. I'm a little bit more together than I was last time, which, by the way, that feels like it was a 1000000 years ago and it was maybe a year.

Claudia: I'd love to dive into a little bit more about your experience. Obviously, you've worked with some really cool brands, specifically, obviously, like Uber, Booking dotcom, etcetera. You've also worked in some VC backed tech startups, scale ups, etcetera, and also have started your own business doing both interim and also permanent roles, obviously, throughout your career. So really keen just to dive into it a little bit, but I think it would be great for you to give a little intro on what you do for a living and explain a little bit more around, you know, if to to someone who doesn't know or wouldn't understand what you do for a living, how would you describe, your role?

SE: Oh, that's always a fun one. It's like when you try to explain to your parents what you do because it's not, you know, it's it's just not the same now as it used to be. So I formally worked in the legal space, moved over into the people space entirely by accident as actually this happens very often. So I ended up being a recruiter, then moved in house, and then ended up in the people space thereafter. That's the very condensed short version. Worked with some really lovely brands along the way, some of which you've mentioned, but truthfully found my niche in the sort of smaller end of the scale, ideally series a to c, arena. So that's me.

Claudia: Awesome. Thank you for that insight. So, I think it's great to find out a little bit more about your pivots in your career and, I guess, how you really got to where you are today. So let's start. Obviously, you mentioned that you started, well, you studied law and then you made a pivot, so talk us through what happened there.

Transitioning From Your Degree To A Different Career

SE: Yeah. Well, I ended up in a very specialized area of law, and it was really interesting. So I I grew up aboard, moved to the UK, but just always known I wanted to be a lawyer, which now looking back, I'm like, why? But at the time, it's what I really wanted to do. And so I did.

So I I ended up getting into the university of my choice and doing this degree, then went to Germany and kept studying, qualified and just realized I was really unhappy, to be perfectly honest with you. So made the switch, and it was totally unplanned. So making the switch, I make it sound really simple. It was actually a really tiny midlife crisis at the beginning of my twenties. So a quarter life crisis, I think probably is what we'd call it, where I realized that I'd sort of geared up all this education, all my work experience, my internships to to do this.

And, I I it wasn't it wasn't making me happy. I wasn't fulfilled at work. I found it a bit of a drag, and it wasn't frankly, it just wasn't as much fun as I thought it was going to be at all. And the path was not going to make it, so to be honest. So the progression opportunities were not going to make it any more fun.

And the most fun I'd had was when I studied it, and that was a real pity for me to come to that conclusion because I geared everything up for so long. So, so I came back to the UK and, and I met with sorry, I speak a few languages. I've grown up in a variety of places. I've been really lucky to have parents who refuse to send me to international schools, and I had to learn all the local languages. So at the time, not great when you're awkward teenage years, but later in life, it has certainly paid off.

And so I went to see an agency that specialized in in languages, and a very lovely chap who runs that business called Steve gave me the opportunity to go and work with him, and I've been his client ever since, actually. So when I left, I remained his client. He was lovely. He gave me lots of opportunity, lots of training and encouragement. Originally went to see them to find a role somewhere with my languages, and it ended up being, hey.

Why don't you come work with us? Because we're a recruitment agency that specializes in language placements. And I thought, oh, yeah. That could yeah. That marries up some some things that could be really fun.

So, so that's what I what I ended up doing. I really, yeah, took a bit of a punt, did some additional training, and, yeah, ended up as a as a recruiter. I did that for about 18 months before moving in house, but that's how I made the switch, totally by accident.

Practicing Law: Expectation VS Reality

Claudia: Okay. So just touching a little bit more on the legal side, I think, what were the expectations versus reality and what were the differences?

SE: I think I expected it to be more consultative. I expected more client facing time. I, I can talk the hind leg of anybody, frankly, at this stage, which you're well aware of, but, I'm really, I am, for the most part, a bit of an extrovert. And so, that was the expectation. The reality, a little different.

So the reality was I spent long hours reading lots of stuff, which I also love doing. I read a lot of books. I was recently on a 2 week holiday, and I read 9 books. Like, I'm a hugely, hugely avid reader. But I don't want to have to do that always.

And so when you do that and you have one client hour every 2 weeks, it just the balance just wasn't there for me. I understand. And so that's where, like, the expectation versus reality really fell down. And it was interesting because even throughout the internships, it wasn't like that. So even my internships, I went out to client side.

I was, you know, spending time with various client meetings, went to a couple of disputes. Like, it was really it was really, really interesting for me, and that sort of seemed at the time to be a confirmation that this is what I wanted to do. And then, yeah, reality just took a different turn. And I'm not sure if part of it is expectations weren't set to me properly or that I was trying to run before I could walk. That's a distinct possibility.

We're all very eager. Right? When we get out of university, we obviously know everything. And it maybe was a combination of the 2. I'm not sure, but it just it didn't end up being right for me.

Claudia: So Fair enough. Well, I think a lot of people can probably learn from this because a lot of people do degrees and then they get out to the real world and then figure out, actually, in reality, this is definitely not what I wanted. And I think it's really good to just normalize this and make it okay and not have, I guess, any anxiety surrounding this decision that you might need to make pivots. It is okay to make pivots. It's so important to normalize this, I think. So thank you for sharing that. So, obviously, you moved into recruitment from there, and then you decided to go, internal. So what were the motivations behind moving internal?

Moving From External to Internal People Function

SE: That, to be very honest, was also accidental. So, I ended up coming to the time where, you know, I thought, well, this agency has been great.

It's taught me a lot. And I started recruitment during one of the most difficult times in, recent British economic history. And so I think sort of we navigated through that really well, and I built this desk and I built a team and, gone on some really, like, huge clients actually that I'd know, but that was me. Right. I I landed, they taught me how to do some stuff.

So I just ended up going after really big names. So I went after my apple, Mercedes, Lego, and we brought them all on and it was great. It was fantastic. I built this team and I just, I was looking for something else. I also was a bit restless in the UK because I was in the UK at the time.

So I was just kind of ready to to, you know, spread my wings a bit. And so, so I did. So I ended up, ultimately joining, one of Groupon's competitors, who I don't think exist anymore, but they were called LivingSocial. So I joined them, to help set up their, kind of an in house travel team. So they had all of the the deal side of the business, and then they were building out the travel side of the business.

And so I joined them to build that up, and and that's then how I ended up at Travelzoo, where I was for almost 6 years. And, the reason for that was really funny. I was called to kind of the the prequel to the cease and desist letter. I got that phone call because I was pinching loads of people out of travel zoo to come and join LivingSocial. That's how that happened.

And so it was put to me that, you know, would you would you come and, you know, hire for us instead of from us, please?

Travelling For A People Role

SE: That would be great. So I was their first proper in house recruiter, which was really fun. And and we did it all. So we had a separate HR team and then myself.

I was with them forever, and with them, I had assignments all over the place. So I actually ended up with my first stint in the states. So I was in New York for a while and then moved to Chicago for several years. I also did a a stint in Germany and, Singapore. So with them and it was just and every single time, it happened the same way.

I randomly got a phone call, usually over a weekend or while I was on holiday. Hey. Would you be interested in coming out here and doing some of this? And and the the assignment for the US started exactly that way. My CEO called, and I remember exactly.

I was in a a bar in Egypt with my mom, and he called me and he said, hey. Things are not working on the recruitment side in the US. Would you be willing to come out here and help us out for a few weeks? That's how it started, a few weeks. And then very quickly, it developed into, okay.

You're probably gonna have to stay here for the summer. Oh, wow. New York in the summer. That's terrible. I'm 25.

My bills are being paid. Yeah. Let's do it. Why not? But then when I left, I was really, really sad to be leaving.

So I thought, oh, this I could totally do this. You know? So, anyway, we had a conversation. I said, I think I'd like to, move over here on a more permanent solution. So, you know, would you be willing to look at that?

And they said, yeah. Actually, we would. That would be fine. But we can't put you in New York. You can choose between LA and Chicago.

Chicago was the obvious choice. Moved to Chicago. Didn't know a soul. Everyone in the office was in a very different stage of life, wherein in mind I'm in, like, my mid twenties at this point, and everyone in the office has got, like, families and things like that. And I've moved over there with, you know, my favorite pair of bug boots.

So it's a very, very different state of life. Very, very different working culture. Just, yeah, really different ways of doing things, but the same company. So it was a really funny, funny way of working, and I I loved it. I absolutely loved it.

And then, gosh, fast forward a few years and ultimately, decided it was probably time to come home. My, one of my parents wasn't very well at the time, and it was just, you know, what? This seems like a good time to to come home. So I did, and then 3 weeks later, was hired back as a consultant to do something really similar. And, actually, what I should mention is during that time, I didn't stay as internal recruiter, so my role changed.

We built a team, which I then headed up. And so I did a lot of things around. That's when my work started to diversify from, I think, just pure recruitment. We ended up, I say we because I built this team of of 4, but we ended up building out things like internal mobility and all that kind of stuff. So, and really put together a proper people team as we would call it now.

So, you know, a multidiscipline people team rather than just HR sits here and doesn't talk to recruitment, that sort of thing. So, yeah, left, and then, again, Chris, the CEO, he's awesome. He's also been my client since I've gone self employed. He's brilliant. He then said, oh, you know, actually, yeah, we'd we'd really like you to still do some work.

We're looking to expand Australia. Okay. Well, then I guess I'll be helping you expand Australia. No problem. So that's then what we ended up doing.

And I was with them for, yeah, a really long time. So that, I think, just kinda gives you a really good overview of some of it was definitely motivated by me. So the moving abroad after the initial offer, that was me. And and anytime something was thrown out to the group of, oh, would someone be interested in doing this? My hand went up because I could.

You know? Why not? I really don't have any responsibilities. I still now have that many, but I had fewer then. So I think it just you you could, so I did.

And and then sometimes I was tapped on the shoulder for it, and that's just kinda how it goes. I think that's, a really good piece of advice for anyone who is really looking to accelerate their career. Ultimately, just put your hand up. Just get involved with everything. You'll get way more visibility, probably even across departments as well.

And then therefore you'll have even more advocates who are championing you, who are happy to get you involved and, you know, very hopefully get made aware for promotions. So, take and I'll get a whistle there from SE there.

Moving Away From Agency Expenses

Claudia: Lovely. So then you obviously went to, well, Amsterdam up in book with booking.com. So talk us through that transition.

SE: Yeah. So ChowNow I knew was heading up a new division or a new subdivision within TA, and, and he said, look. We're looking for to build out an exec hiring team. We're spending oodles of money on an exec agency that does it all for us. And I thought, oh, that can't be very cost efficient.

It wasn't. And so, I was brought on to set up a an internal kind of global leadership hiring division, I suppose, is the best way to put it. And so what what that meant was, yeah, just slowly migrating away from using an external agency into, working in house. And so we ended up setting up a team where we had, sort of really quite traditional, but couple of sources, couple of recruiters, and really unpicking the relationship from this external person who's lovely and who actually really weirdly placed me years later with someone else. So so really good relationship, but it just it wasn't cost effective to to do all of global leadership hiring through that.

And, again, that presented a lot of international travel opportunities. I ended up spending quite a lot of time in Seattle for my sins because it definitely rains more than anywhere else I've ever been.

Claudia: I can definitely vouch for that. I used to live in Vancouver and, I mean, I went down to Seattle. It's, like, 2 hours away, basically. It it is pretty depressing because Yeah.

SE: You get it in the run of the review, and you're like, okay. So, yeah, it but it was a fantastic opportunity because, obviously, Booking was quite a bit bigger than any company I'd worked for until that point, about 14,000 people. And I was based in Amsterdam where the vast majority of them were sat, but Seattle was a really big hub back then, less so now. And so it was a really cool opportunity to build, yeah, just, like, the real strategy around how do you look at global leadership.

It was also my first foray into proper, sort of compensation reviews. So we were looking at exec compensation, and I worked really closely with, with a chap who actually I'm still in contact with to completely redesign what that looked like, for for booking, which ended up being very, very different from when we first started. But it was my first real sort of big corporate entity that I'd worked in. And that really was an adjustment. It was a big, big time of adjustment because my my biggest team up until then had been 5, 600 people globally, but 5, 600 people.

Transitioning Business Sizes

SE: So moving into a 14000 team business was different. But it was wonderful, and I loved being back in Amsterdam. So I actually grew up in in Holland, where I spent a lot of my childhood certainly in Holland. So it was really fun to be back there as well for for many reasons. But so that was a really interesting move, for me.

And then the same chap that brought me on there, also brought me on, to then my next role. So he said, oh, I have something else exciting. You know? If you're if you're ready to go back to the UK, I'll make an introduction. Let's see if it's a good fit.

And, well, it was, and it was the dream because I got to work for a business that, frankly, I spent a lot of money with. So so I got to go and enjoy a staff discount for a little bit, which was really fun. But it was absolutely amazing. It's probably the job I have to date enjoy the most.

What Makes A Business Stand Out?

Claudia: And why is that? Because, obviously, you've worked with, like, so many different types of organizations and things like that. What what made, this particular business stand out?

SE: It was just a really so within the microcosm, because it is about a 5 well, it was back then about a 5, 6000 person business. And but the the culture was amazing. My team was amazing.

I'm still in touch with most of the people on my team from then. I just I had the absolute best time. I really did. I I

Claudia: Could you describe the culture?

SE: Welcoming, open, supportive, just really, I don't want to use the word happy, but but people did really seem super happy.

Yes. Frustrated because work is work. And so obviously, some things some things are going to annoy you, but just everyone was always welcome everywhere. There was always something to do. There'd always be social things going on, which was really nice, but it was you could opt in or out as you as you felt, you know, appropriate.

I I think 50% of my reason why I loved it was my team. I loved my team. They were absolutely phenomenal. And, actually, another big chunk of it for me was just my boss who, again, I work with still now. She's a fellow consultant, and we work together still now.

She, we agreed on an outline, and I just ran with it. And I think that also really works for me. Right? So we agree on a plan of what we need to what the end result needs to look like, make it happen. And I think a lot of of how I worked around that, I just really, really, you know, suited the way that I like to work.

So between that, the people, the people were a really big piece of it. And and they really they just wanted to do things the right way. And that I really you know, it doesn't always mean it's fast. Doesn't mean it's, but it is best. So let's do it properly because then it's worth doing.

And that really resonates, I think, with how my kind of values have, have, grown over time and how important my values have grown over time in in making sure that there is compatibility there between myself and the people that I work with. And so that was yeah. It was it was amazing. And, actually, it started as a maternity cover, and then this is another example of just put your hand up. So then we were looking for kind of the next level up, and it that would involve a move to the US.

So I put my hand up, and they said, okay. Yeah. We'll we'll make it work. And and that was I mean, I went through an interview and did all that fun stuff, but, it was amazing. And then so then I moved to New York again, years after returning the first time, and that was really fun.

I loved it. Really, really fun. The business changed a lot in that time, which ultimately resulted in me coming home, probably about 18 months later, but it was it was a great assignment. I had a a lot of, you know, I had a lot of fun. I had a lot of exposure within the the US business to lots of new things I'd never seen before, like hiring and staffing a warehouse.

And how do you hire and staff a warehouse during a sale process? And how do you hire 2,000 extra pairs of hands for the sales process and and, you know, the training process for how do you pack? Because at companies like that, it's it's not like other ecommerce businesses. They're very particular with how things are packed and how you tie a bow and all these things that you don't think about or I didn't think about. So it was a really interesting move into more of kind of ops recruiting for me.

That was that was really fun. But this definitely took more of a hybrid people and talent role. Again, built a team, you know, put some noses out of joint by changing a lot of processes. Wasn't always the most popular, but that was totally fine. But just got to kind of see how things worked from another level of zoom out, I guess, which I really enjoyed.

How To Move Forward In The People & Talent Space?

Claudia: Awesome. That sounds great. So from that environment, I'm guessing, did you learn a lot of things that you thought you could sort of put into process moving forward in your career?

SE: Yeah. I definitely and I kind of unlearned a few things, as funny as that sounds, but I really I I also unlearned quite a few things that, you know, I'd assumed to be true because they were true in this microcosm and actually they're they're not.

And I I so I definitely took a lot of learnings with me one way or another.

Claudia: Great. Awesome. So obviously from there, you then, relocated back to the Big Smoke in London, by the looks of it, with Uber. Yeah. Is that right?

Leading The People Function At Uber

SE: No. Actually, with Uber, I was like, oh, no. I did come out. No. No. No. Not yet. Uber was in Amsterdam. Yeah. So I was in the European HQ. Awesome. So back in Amsterdam again? Back to Amsterdam again, which is great because I just got to reconnect with the friends I made last time, so I was like, oh, hi. It's brilliant.

Claudia: Absolutely. And what was your role, what did your role involve at Uber?

SE: Gosh. Well, it started very differently from how it ended. So I was brought on board as as head of sourcing because they had a huge sourcing engine, which encapsulated, tech sourcing, corporate sourcing, and, ops.

So, and that was a team of 26, something like that when I joined. So that was the original role. Then there were some changes in the the the management team, let's say. And then my role just kind of grew. So then I ended up taking on ops recruiting, so sourcing and recruiting.

I also then ended up taking over, well, we ended up creating a whole new division, which was really interesting. So we'd identified a need for more sales hires because we were expanding some of the products that have now become just fully embedded, like Uber Freight. Uber Eats was expanding, and so we had to hire more salespeople for that to, to bring people on board. We also expanded Uber Business into EMEA. So it was a lot of my team especially was responsible for staffing the the products that were emerging or, sorry, were merging into the European market, from HQ.

So we ended up I put together a business case. Look. We need a sales recruitment team because we can't it's a different skill set. We can't hire the way that we have been. We need to do this differently.

Here's my proposal, which was accepted. And then that's when the chaos started because then it was suddenly, okay. Well, we need several 1,000 hires in the next year, and this is what it's going to look like. And and so the very short version of this is, I learned every single day how much I didn't know. So it was everything from really deep compensation work.

So how you pay salespeople is different, which you and I now know very well, but Mhmm. I don't think I was aware just how different. So it was a complete review on how do we compensate salespeople, How do we incentivize them? How do we train them? Where do we put them?

Because I don't have room for, you know, 4 and a half 1000 people in this location. So how do we make room for this quantity of people? And the best way ultimately that we found for this was to embed them in the existing centers of excellence across Europe. So that's where all of the kind of traditional customer service roles were set. But they had a bunch of room.

They had training teams. It was kind of a plug and play for your inside sales team. So we built teams into Cairo, Lisbon, where I spent quite a bit of time, also Limerick and Warsaw. So my team grew to 74 people. Yeah.

I know. I feel the same thinking about it, frankly. I could never do that again, I don't think. But, that was the single most stressful time of my career, I think, is fair to say. It was there was very little at the time, there was a lot of transition in the layers above me, so there wasn't a lot of support.

I'm very lucky in the fact that I had peers that knew lots of things about lots of different divisions and ways of doing things. But, certainly, our success, you wouldn't have known that it was going to be successful if you looked at how it all was cobbled together, to be honest. And then, again, in the spirit of total honesty, it's also when I hit burnout. So towards the end of my time there, I, yeah, I just I was consumed by work. It's all I did.

My work laptop and phone were never far from me. I don't I don't I didn't take a single holiday without my work laptop, or phone. I was forever on call. I had a leader at the time that thought it was appropriate to call you almost every night. That's a that's a lot of pressure to it.

It was. It was a lot. And I didn't I hadn't yet learned because I hadn't had to because I'd always had really great managers actually up until then. And that's probably something I should have mentioned sooner. A few really stand out as being fantastic.

But until then, I think I had actually been in the in the larger scheme of things very lucky, or we'd just been able to communicate really well to set boundaries. And so I'd never had to just put my foot down looking upwards. And I didn't know how, and I'm very pleased to tell you that I've since learned this skill very solidly. Mhmm. And very pleased to tell you that I've since learned this skill very solidly.

But I I didn't have it at the time. And and so I didn't I didn't set in any boundaries, and and so, ultimately I had to take 2 months off work.

What Makes A Good Leader?

Claudia: Yeah. Well, that's, that's good learnings from this, I guess, and also obviously, set boundaries there. So just on that, what would you say from the best leaders that you have, what do they look like and how would you describe the best leaders that you've had?

SE: Well, the best leaders that I have had have they have one thing in common, and that is that they have always been very consultative. So they understand that they're in their leadership position, but the the people in their team are there because they have a variety of expertise. And so that's something they've always had in common. They have been lots of different nationalities, so there's really no other common themes. I've had male and female bosses.

Gosh. Yeah. It'd probably be easier to tell you about the worst bosses, but I don't know if I'm allowed to do that, so I probably won't. But, they I know that's a terrible thing to say, but there's they're much easier to classify. Like, a bad boss is so much easier to classify than a a good boss.

A good boss, actually, the best thing about them is that they maneuver around you. They give you what you need as an individual. That's what makes a good boss. Right? It's a human that understands that you're human, and you come with your own complexities.

And I think that that is what has made them, good. And and, frankly, what's made them good for me is I know how I work well. I don't work well when you're watching me over my shoulder. I work well when we agree. This is what the end result looks like.

Make it happen. I will work harder for you if you show me that you trust me than if you're breathing down my neck because then I'll just rebel because my inner child will not. So, I think that gives you a good glimpse of how I am as a person, but I I I think that's something that they think they will have in common. Yeah. I definitely feel the same way, so I totally understand where you're coming from.

I don't wanna sound like a massive brat, but it's and the but the thing is, I think, over time, I've definitely come to the point where I understand that, okay. You need help on this. You need to find an expert on this or whatever it might be. So it's not that I I never want anyone in my business or anything like that, but it's just give me a minute to think and put this together in a way that makes sense so that we can have a discussion about it. And that, like I say, that's something that they've all had in common.

And it's it's that's something that I really carry through to when I lead teams is just what does the individual need? And and that has been a steep learning curve with some of the teams I've had. You know, you go from managing this enormous team of 75, and then maybe your next one, you manage a team of 2. And so you've managed 3 layers of manager. Right?

So you've managed people that literally show you what the whole team's up to in spreadsheets. And then suddenly you're managing a junior IC, you know, that's been in the workplace for maybe a year, and it takes you a minute to adjust your communication style to understand what they need. And that that was kind of a painful learning and unlearning experience in and of itself too, to be honest. Right? Then moving to a smaller business after Uber, you think, oh, okay.

Well, I had a very transactional relationship with most of the the managers that that I had at Uber because, you know, we had a huge group of 75 people's performance to discuss. There is no time for niceties and all the rest of it because we're all under this enormous pressure. And then going to a different environment, it kind of forced a, yeah, a different way of looking at how you you lead people. And I think that just will forever continue to be a learning experience. Right?

Different cultures, people need different things, different age groups, different personality types, and I think it's something that I'm I'm always striving to learn more about and and do better, to be honest. Yeah. I love that. It's, really insightful to demonstrate the differences that you need to attribute to different people and personalities and level of experience. So it's worth taking all into account.

Is Relocation Common In A People & Talent Role?

Claudia: Thank you so much for that. So I'm just going to ask you some generalized questions regarding the people route now. So you've obviously worked very internationally and I'm sure a lot of people are thinking, oh, this sounds really fun. You know, I get exposure to lots of different countries and, cultures, etcetera. But I want to ask, is this typical for someone, well, for somebody who goes into a people or talent acquisition route to get relocated? Is this very common?

SE: That's it's difficult to answer, but I'll I'll do my best. Within certain industries, yes. Well so, honestly, I think it comes down to the size of the business. Right? So if you're going to work for a 20 person startup, no. But if you work for something on the bigger end of the scale, and it doesn't always have to be a meta, right? That's not what I'm saying, or an apple or an Uber or anything like that.

But if you work, for a business that is on the bigger end of the scale so let's say, actually, probably the smallest business that relocated me was we had a team of 500, But that's when you know they have the basic infrastructure to be able to support that. You know? And that that's what it comes down to often because, you know, we live in a world, especially post Brexit, where you need visas for everything these days. Right? So so and, certainly, to move to the US, obviously, you need a visa.

Of course. Although, who would want to move there right now? Although, frankly, I feel the same way about the UK, honestly. But, anyway, that's a different podcast. So so I think, yes.

If yes. Depending on the size of the business, I suppose, is the best and shortest answer I can give you. So it's not entirely atypical, but certainly a a really tiny start up, that's probably not going to happen for you.

How To Transition From External Recruitment To An Inhouse People Function

Claudia: My other question to you is, is it common for people to come from a recruiter backgrounds and then work their way into people roles because, obviously, there's been a lot of recruiters on the market, for example, in the last 18 months. We all know that there's a lot of talent acquisition functions that unfortunately have been massacred and, therefore, you know, I'm sure a lot of recruiters are kind of considering what their options have are or will be and what their transferable skills get sets could be? So is it very common for people to come from recruiter backgrounds?

SE: Okay. Well, yes, it is quite common, I think, but I wouldn't say it's easy. And I also don't think it's for every TA person, and I'll explain why. I think if you look at some of the best recruiters I know are really good because they live and breathe recruitment and networking and, you know, getting stuff done and improving on data and and getting through the processes.

And so of course that creates loads and loads of transferable skills, right? So your ability to consume and interpret and regurgitate data, that's gonna be great for any role that you decide to go into these days because it's you know, we measure everything as we should, and it forms a really big part of decision making. So there there's one example. Obviously, your ability to talk to others, wonderful. You'll always need that.

But, actually, being a great recruiter doesn't always necessarily make you a great people person, HR person, whatever you want to look at that. And I am hesitant to to go into too much detail as to why, but, the way that I look at recruiters and, you know, please, I hope this isn't shady. I've been one myself, and I I I would love to just be one of the people the full time, but we're salespeople. Right? Yeah.

And and as a as an HR person, your primary function again, depending on the type of the people space that you go into, you could go into l and d, which I think often, like, lends itself really, really well to that transferable skill set. But you could also go into people operations, which would also work really well, but you could end up within kind of more of the HRBP business partner space. And so being a great salesperson doesn't always make you a great analytical listener that you would need to be as an HR VP. You know, you are, a get stuff done mentality, which is great for a recruiter, not always great for a people person. And so, yes, there are some transferable skills.

Truly, I think whether or not that switch is appropriate depends on you as an individual. Right? What are your drivers within that? With me, I always loved the people side. I loved it.

And so it was kind of a natural move over for me and and it happened slowly. Right? We've talked about it. There was this comp project and then there was, oh, can you look at employability here? And, oh, let's do some work on, you know, mobility.

Let's do and so it really slowly develops over time, or at least that was my experience, but it it can go different ways for different people. But I truly think it depends on so I want to dispel the myth that it's easy to work in HR because it's not. You have to have if anything, you have to dial up the, discretion even more because you'll know things and learn things that you can't even talk to the other HR VP about or your team. And so I think it, yeah, it really just depends on the the drivers of the individual, but I I've seen a lot of recruiters make the switch, purposefully or not. Sometimes it happens slowly.

Right? Like with me, kind of accidentally, you take on projects, and then you end up, you know, being in a people's face and all of them, I don't know how this happened, but here I am. And other times it's really purposeful. So I've also spoken to people who who've said, you know, I'm off to study to do this conversion in onto the HR side. Which by the way, I also don't think is always necessary.

I'm not saying don't do further education. If that's for you, absolutely do it. But I don't have a CIPD. I have a bunch of other stuff instead, and, it certainly never stopped me from getting anything right or getting a role or anything like that. So I just that's that's my disclaimer.

No hate, but I I reject the notion that you have to have CIPD or that you have to go back to school in order to achieve, a career switch because that's simply not true. I think that's great to hear because, you know, a lot of people potentially can't afford to do that right now or feel that it's a blocker. So, for example, I see some job specs whereby CMOPD is essential for some jobs, and so it's really refreshing to hear that actually it's not and you just need some really good experience. Your experience is probably, I like to think, going to outweigh a qualification such as CIPD, for example. Yeah.

Because you've seen how it works practically, And, actually, we've all seen this, right, where we've learned how to do things the right way and then you learn how to do things in the real world. And those 2 are distinct. You know, now that doesn't mean that you stop referencing things and you just do what you think is right. You know, definitely that's also not what I'm saying. Right.

You definitely need to make sure that you are doing things properly and that you're following the due process and, you know, don't break the law. You know? But that that aside, I don't think you necessarily have to be doing a qualification. That's my 2¢, and there'll be someone else that disagrees with me completely, and that's fine. But, anyway No.

It's good to hear. I love everyone's opinion. Okay. So with regards to, AI, so let's just dive into a little bit more around AI and I'm keen to understand how do you think AI will affect your profession as a people leader? Well, I think it's going to be supplementary.

There's this kind of fear mongering, to be honest, or I feel there has been a lot of fearmongering. Oh, it's good to replace us. Well, if all you do is admin and you don't add value beyond that, and I mean very classic admin, like filling in templates and that sort of thing, then maybe it could replace you over time. But the hope is that we would be able to augment your experience to find another way for you to to contribute. For me, it's supplementary.

So it's making sure that the tone is right. It's making sure that, sometimes you have a skeleton, a basic foundation on which to base something. Right? So so that I think has been quite a a a fun addition to this. So there's no there's no need to whip up a policy from total scratch.

Right? You can you can give yourself a skeleton from somewhere and then flesh it out and make it more more kind of appropriate to whoever you're working with at the time or, you know, the voice of the business and that kind of thing. So that's very Chatuchy PT specific. But it it gives you an idea, I think, of of how, on a supplementary basis, it can be a supplementary basis, it can be it can be really helpful for someone at this level. I think beyond that, though, there is a huge application of this within learning and development in particular to really make learning smart.

And there's a few products out there that are already really doing this that are really beyond just a chatbot or anything like that, but I think it can really what it will ultimately enable you to do is increase the quality of delivery while not having to increase vastly the headcount of your team. And that's, like, the really short version of how this helps. So on the more transactional end, I think you've got this whole chatbot piece that can really stop all the constant emails and pings to your HR team about how much holiday do I have, what's our policy on this. I go to the chatbot. The chatbot will tell you and find and locate within the handbook or your intranet the piece of information that you're looking for.

So I think it it really it will help to to make the most of the people that you have on that aspect from a team building perspective. But then, yeah, like I say, a personal use, I think it's a it's a supplementary piece, for for basic things like policies on the very basic end. And for n and d, I I really think it has a much broader, much, much more exciting impact because it means that you're able to, with minimal staffing, really, tailor and individualize the learning experience, which I think in this day and age is really, really important. Right? So we have things like we have dyslexia to consider.

We have to consider a variety of neurodiversity. And and so I actually think that AI and l and d could could really help make, just create access. And I think that's what's missing in a lot of places. So that I think is where we're going to see the the big and what I'm excited to see the greatest impact for. Awesome.

Thank you for that. I think that's a really good overview covering lots of different bases there, and, ultimately, it can help not hinder, the people, division, and department, I think, overall, and and other departments, to be honest, in my opinion. Great. So, could you just describe, for those who are looking to work their way up in the people or HR ladder, could you describe a typical day in the life for a VP of people? No.

No way. I couldn't possibly. Gosh. I no 2 days are the same. I can honestly honestly say that.

But, gosh, I don't I this is so funny. This has me stumped. I don't even know where to start. I think there's a variety of different things that will make up any one day. And so it's usually something to do with especially at this scale.

Right? And so I'm speaking specifically of series a to c, startup at this level, assuming as quite often in this this size of business, there's no kind of chief people officer. Right? So you report directly into the CEO or the COO, sometimes CFO. But, anyway, c suite.

And, usually, you sit on the exec team. That's the usual kind of setup. So just to kind of set the scene, there's a lot of stuff coming out of exec. Usually, also some stuff from board, that will come through again, especially within the startup world. There tends to be much more communication there, with investors, so there'll be quite a bit of stuff there.

You know, there's a lot of, oh, how do we insert whatever problem they've managed to discover this week? So there's a lot of that, like, oh oh, we found this great person, but they're based in Tanzania. How do we hire them? How did you find them? So a lot of, just how do we do and then you just you figure it out.

A lot of firefighting, so there's usually quite a bit of ER work that will end up bubbling up to you. A lot of reminding people that we're adults, and so we have to behave like adults in the workplace. There's a lot of that depending on the business, but there's some there seems to be quite a bit of that. And learning. Every day, I learn something new.

So, you know, there's been just all kinds of crazy like, you wouldn't believe the number of scam attempts that happen to HR teams, or maybe you would because you work in this space. But the number of times that scammers will try and pretend that they are staff members and they're looking for to be paid into a different account or that they're your client and someone hacks into their email and they're like, oh, our details have changed. Please send all invoices here in future. So there's a lot of I feel like a bit of a sleuth sometimes, so I've gotta be checking our email addresses just to make sure it's all legit. Negotiation, lots of negotiations.

So I do a lot of, so my people role is kind of people in ops. So I do some business operations stuff as well. So I spend a lot of my time asking people to do better with whatever service that we're trying to to to to get through. So whether it be a piece of software or if we're looking for someone to come in and do a review based on efficiency or whatever it might be, I spend a lot of my time negotiating contracts, or contract terms more specifically, and obviously supporting my team. I didn't mean to mention that last, but they're obviously in there.

But I have to say I'm really lucky. I think we lost this job in the way we're not to be self sufficient until we come together and and and meet from there. And the last piece actually is, I'd say, manager enablement, So not the exec level, but, like, the layer below. It's, coaching, I think is probably the best way to put it. So there's quite a bit of coaching involved in this, sometimes at the exec level, sometimes even higher than that.

But most of the time I'd say at the kind of manager level where, you know, you're it's kind of very early stage diffusing potential employee relations issues. And that probably gives you a good idea. And, like, again, my assumption is on a smaller team. So up to maybe 7, you would still get involved in all level. And you should.

I think if you're if you're if you're a good people leader, you should be able to flex into all areas of people to a certain degree. And I always try to do that so I can support. And so that has dictated the chaos that ensues. I think that you also sign up for again if you're in this kind of startup environment. There's always something.

You know? So, yeah, hopefully that gives you an idea of the the chaos that is Absolutely. Definitely does. Okay. Great.

So let's just get onto some fire questions about, I guess, anyone looking to get into a people role and or, you know, they're really interested in keeping up to date with what's going on. So what three actionable steps would you recommend to those looking to get into the industry? Make sure you really mean it. And I mean I mean, wholeheartedly, network with people who are in this space with a variety of people that are in this space. Understand that there is a big difference between working for in the start up scene or the SME space versus big corporate, and really understand which of those you're going towards because they will require very, very different skill sets.

And not one is not better than the other, to be very clear, but I know for a fact that I work better in the, you know, series c and below arena, because of how I operate and how independently I like to operate. And that doesn't work when you have to get 16 people to sign off on something. So for me, that doesn't that doesn't work. So really make sure that you're signing up for, I guess, the right version of what it is you think you want to do. Network with people in that space at that level.

And then to kind of get yourself ready is find a way to contribute wherever you're at at the moment to learn, and this kind of goes back to some of the examples I gave. So there there was an opportunity to get involved in global mobility. I'll get involved in that. There was an opportunity to to get involved in some visa work. I'll get involved in that compensation work.

And it doesn't make you suddenly overnight qualified. Right? It doesn't give you all the experience you need to suddenly move into that role, but it certainly does help prepare you for the kinds of, I guess, yeah, the the the kinds of things that you would be looking at. It really helps hopefully reconfirm that this is what you're looking to do. So that kind of helps you get ready.

One helps you make sure that you know what you're getting yourself in for. And the last one is defining your terms. Right? So which is it? Because corporate and small fry are not the same.

Definitely not the same. Both can do hyper growth, but it looks really different, you You know? And if you if you really enjoy, like, process and having someone to preset the way that things are done and you have to adjust your speed at which you operate, then corporate is for you. If you like going in somewhere where no 2 days are the same, everything is really scrappy, there isn't a template for anything, and no one knows the answer, go into start up. Great.

Awesome. And so could you talk us through what resources you would recommend to people looking to get into the industry? Oh. Like, any podcasts, any, websites, blogs, anything like that? Yeah.

There's a couple of really good ones. There's a couple of books that I'd recommend because, you know, avid reader. The Culture Map by Erin Meyer is amazing. I think I mention this every time anyone asks me for any book recommendations. And I I just continue to think it's probably one of the best pieces that I've read around, implied and explicit communication, which is 90% of your work.

So, definitely that. Also, I think in this day and age, again, if you're looking to be in the tech space, there's couple of really good podcasts around AI, which I think are quite important for you to stay up and current, on that kind of thing. There's a couple of really good newsletters actually, that I also would recommend signing up to. So, well, I'm happy to send you the links. Maybe you can include those later rather than me rattling them all off.

But Absolutely. Yeah. But there's a couple of really good ones that look at the the people space in particular, but also kind of zoomed out from that. There's, like, the the brown bag recruiter and and stuff like that, which I actually really like. So there's those pieces, and then, there's so many free workshops.

So many. How do people find these workshops? Yeah. Eventbrite's a really good place to look, and it is a bit of a trawl through there. There there's a couple of, kind of smaller consultancies that do some really good work in this arena.

So, like, Glass Female does some really good stuff. She's very much like an HR for HR person and always looks at development for people at different stages of their experience of of their life, and how, you know, how to make the 2 compatible, to be honest. So that's also been really good. And I'll I'll include a few links, I'll send them over to you, of things that I am really bad with remembering names, and it makes me question sometimes why I'm in this line of work. But there are a few things that I very, very regularly listen to.

So, yeah, I'll pop those over as well. But it's just it's all part of understanding what you're getting yourself in for, I think. What is the best advice that you have ever received from a mentor? Oh, I think this is built into my personality now, so it's probably already come across. But it was and it it's really simple, but it's just go for it.

What's the worst thing that can happen? Love that. Honestly, that is my that is my most verbatim what she said to me. Like, what what's the worst thing that can happen now? I was like, well, I I won't get it.

And she was like, okay. But then you tried, and you know you tried. And I think a lot of that is my own maturity, to be honest, like being much more comfortable with it. And it it really yeah. It's still very true.

So very much kind of leaning into my own communication style, what I'm happy with, how I present myself, how I present my work, and just being more comfortable with it. So being I hate this. It's over the used, but, like, being authentically myself. And I'm not sure well, no. I am sure that I have not always been this comfortable just being me.

But I think it actually adds a lot more value. You know, I tend to be a little more jovial. I definitely I'm probably still the only person that brings a few laughs to a board meeting, but we don't need to be so serious. I know it's business, and we need to get on with things, but we're not we're humans, and we're not entirely devoid of a bit of humor and entertainment on the journey. And so that agree more.

Yeah. Being being authentically me and just just do it. I think I learned very early on in my career that people were buying into me when I was being authentically myself, and it would help me secure better relationships, better deals, obviously, from, like, a sales and recruitment perspective. And I cannot say more that you don't have to be a little corporate robot. You have you know, people will buy into you and warm to you, and therefore, hopefully, you'll do better in your career.

No. I would agree. And not even hopefully. I I really, really think there's a link there. And I think, like, the reason why I've kept in touch with and I made reference to this, you know, why I'm still in touch with this person.

I still work with this person. Yes. It's because I did good work, and we worked really well together. Of course, it's because of that, but it's also because I'm me, and the way I work really responds to them and, like, my, you know, yeah, my skill set comes into that, but it's it's how you are, how you operate, how you manage up, how you tell people that what they're looking for isn't realistic. You know, what it's how you present all of that is really part of your own brand, and it doesn't matter if you're a consultant.

You run your own business. It doesn't matter if you work for some you know, work in a business. It all of those things are true. It it's your own it's your own brand ultimately that it's contributing to. Right?

So and I part of the reason we've kept in touch is because we bonded over lots of silly things that had nothing to do with work. And then actually we ended up talking about lots of serious work stuff. So it's just yeah. It it I think it's really, really important for, kind of longevity. And this isn't a word, but, like, people's ability to remember you is to be you.

And that Definitely. You know, you'll make an intro sometimes, and then it won't be relevant until 6, 9, 12 months later. And so if you're one of the corporate robots, you're not very memorable. Right? But if you're very new, they'll be like, oh, can we speak to that person that did this?

And I and my first client this time setting up my business was exactly that. It was an introduction I'd had 12 months earlier where I said, oh, no. No. You don't wanna bother with a proper handbook. Why don't you do this?

And they'd remembered that, and they they then came back to me and said, oh, well, now that you're doing, you know, your own thing, perhaps we can work together, and we are. And it just, yeah, just just do you. Love that. Well, Esi, thank you so much for your time today. It's been an absolute joy to hear your full story and to provide some fabulous insights, so thank you very much.

My pleasure. I really hope I haven't talked too much. That's all good. Thank you so much. Thank you.