How To Start A Career In Computer Science
Claudia: Welcome to the Waddyado podcast, where I sit down and speak with professionals having honest conversations about their careers, how they got into them, and advice for those looking to follow a similar path. But most of all, telling you, the listeners, what it's really like to do that job. I hope you enjoy. Well, Ben, welcome to the Waddyado Podcast. It's an absolute pleasure to have you here today. Thank you very much.
Ben: Thanks for having me.
Claudia: No problemo. Well, just for a little bit of context, Ben and I actually kinda go a little bit way back. Ben and I met traveling, what was it? 12 years ago, I wanna say? Something like that.
Ben: Oh, don't feel like that. That's terrible. But yeah. No. I think it was 2,012, I think.
Claudia: Must have been. So, basically, Ben and I decided post graduating from university that we would go and spread our wings and go and live in Australia for a year. And we actually met on the flight out with a group of people and had a wonderful experience. And then we actually end up working together as well down in Lorne, in Victoria. So, yeah, Ben and I go way back.
Ben's Role at Bournemouth University
Claudia: So thank you so much for taking the time out of your day today
Ben: No worries. I helped you get that job as well, if I remember correctly. Back in the did.
Claudia: Yeah. You definitely put in a good word for me.So I'm eternally grateful. So this is you repaying the favor. Okay. Brilliant. Well, just to add a little bit of context for everyone listening. So, Ben is a senior lecturer at Bournemouth University for in computer science and covers 8 courses across different types of, well, courses within the university. So he pretty much knows, a lot about this type of thing, I'd like to say. Would you agree, Ben?
Ben: I try. I try. Yeah. Yeah. Additionally, I'm also what we call, like, a program leader for 2 master's courses. So that's, digital health and Internet of things. So I kind of like I'm I'm the I'm the manager of those courses in essentially a way.
Understanding Computer Science
Claudia: So, Ben, how would you describe what you do for a living to someone who isn't in your field or industry or who doesn't necessarily understand what all those programs mean or what computer science really is?
Ben: Oh, interesting. So I say that computer science is how to scientifically understand how people interact with technology and how to develop better technology within computing, essentially. So if I was to say that's what computer science research is.
Claudia: Right?
Ben: When we're talking about educational computer science, it's teaching people how to work in any aspect of computing in terms of, you know, networking, websites, small applications, back end software, enterprise software. So, essentially, how we make the world work at the moment is really computer science. That's what I was doing, essentially.
Claudia: That's a good overview, I would say.
Influences to Academia and Computer Science
CLaudia: And so what were the first things that actually influenced you to go into this wonderful path of academia, but also, you know, within specifically computer science related fields?
Ben: Yeah. So my dad is or was at least, an electronic engineer at Motorola. So he actually developed or worked on developing, like, semiconductor chips. So I was kind of always influenced in technology in general, and I think he influenced a lot of those kinda early decisions. So I was always quite technical minded. I had a lot of, like, robotic toys, like, a lot of Lego stuff, and I think that ability to kind of create solutions is really what led me down to computing. I mean, interestingly, I didn't get to study computing in school at all because my school didn't offer it as, a course at kind of high school at all, not even in, like, or whatever you would call it in in England. In Scotland, it's called different things. So I think because I didn't get in school, I ended up doing a lot of it at home, so I got to actually explore the bits that interested me a bit more. So I think that really spurred my interest in it as well.
Claudia: And, well, I think it certainly helped that your dad was around to give you, I guess, teach you the ropes and the basics and the understanding for it. Yeah. Pretty much. Yeah.
Ben: I mean, he doesn't he didn't actually do that much computing. I kind of thought that that was the next not the next thing, but, you know, he was more low level chips that kinda go into cars and stuff. So I was gonna go either electronic engineering or computing, and I kinda thought actually, career wise, it makes sense to go into computing because it's gonna be a bigger field than electronics is, which kinda turned out to be true, I guess. Awesome.
Claudia: So you obviously a lot of people obviously decided to then, once they go to university, go out into industry, but instead, you decided to stay in academia.
Motivations Behind Staying in Academia
Claudia: So what what were the motivators behind that, do you think?
Ben: Yes. So, actually, if we go back to, like, why I went traveling as well, when I did my degree show and we had to demonstrate our our solutions to, you know, the academics and also a couple of industry people, I actually got a job offer, well, I can inform a job offer from Amazon to go and work in their web services. And the kind of other main people who had come in over those months before we graduated to talk to us were companies like Amazon, Thales, who does a lot of, like, missile defense stuff, and then just kind of a lot of local app development companies. So the options were go and develop some apps, which are not often used very well and don't make a lot of impact.
Early Career Opportunities
Ben: Go and develop missiles, or go and do, like, banking and stuff. And I just didn't think that those were the the best choices for me to contribute to, like, society and the world in general. So I deferred the decision and went traveling for years then. And then when I came back, I went back into my department that I'd made really good connections with during my degree, and I kinda asked, oh, is there any funding to do any kind of master's courses or anything like that? Because I actually thought that biotechnology was gonna be the next thing, so kind of fusing computing and, like, medicine together, which turned out to be true back then. But I was told, no. No. There's no more opportunities for you. You've kinda wasted your time by going traveling, etcetera, etcetera. So I kinda left a bit disheartened.
The Importance of Networking
Claudia: What do you mean?
Ben: So then a couple months later, somebody else within the department who was a bit more nicer clearly said, oh, there's this, academic who's moved over from Canada, and he's got funding for a PhD student. Would you be interested in having a chat with him? I said, yeah. Why not?I can do that. So I went and had a chat, and then after half an hour discussion, it was a handshake, and I was gonna be doing a PhD. Wonderful. So yeah. And then after that, I did some teaching during my PhD, and then, yeah, I decided even after then, because I could've went into industry, the academia made made the most sense for me.
Career Paths in Computer Science
Claudia: Awesome. Well, that makes a lot of sense, I think. And, also, if you can get it funded, happy days. Right? That's a winner.
Ben: Brilliant.
Claudia: So, I'd like to dive into a little bit more around, I guess, computer science and the dispel some mess, but then also talk about the different career paths paths that actually we can shine a light on. Because, ultimately, I think a lot of people might think that you just do computer science, and then you immediately would just go into becoming a software engineer. But, actually, there are other options, which you can obviously tell us about shortly. So, yeah, talk us through some typical career paths that people go into postgraduating.
Ben: So I think the most traditional one that a computer science graduate would go into. And when we say computer science graduate, we're not just meaning with that specific degree title. So computer science kinda covers everything from, you know, a degree in software engineering, data analytics, cybersecurity, even things like a degree in user experience would really be, still computer science. So, essentially, anything that uses computing in general. And most people would still say that the traditional goal would be to actually be going and writing code as a software developer.
Beyond Software Development
Ben: So actually writing the actual, you know, language that gets translated into what computers do. Right? So that's obviously the most apparent to a lot of people, but that's not often the roles that most people go into. And a lot of times it's around, you know, translating what somebody has a vision for a piece of software or a need for a user's piece of software. So that could be a business or or a user or a client and then turning that into code. But there's a lot of messy stuff that needs to happen between an idea and actual code getting written, and a lot of different roles sit between that. So information architect would make sense. So that's what kind of a translating the user need into what the software developer needs to implement. Can be done can be a really common one. Solution architects as well.
Sales and Technical Roles
Ben: Yep. Yep. And, yeah, I think a lot of sales roles because it's it's useful to understand how or what can be done in terms of computing to know what's translatable into a product. Right? So for instance, somebody who spends a lot of time talking to clients about their needs can still be a really traditional pathway for a computer science graduate to go into.
Claudia: I would say also just to add to that that, you know, I do a lot of sales engineering recruitment. You know, I run a tech sales and marketing recruitment agency, Ortus Talent. And within that, we work with a lot of clients globally who need that extra technical understanding from on the sales side of things, especially if it's a very technical product, especially, you know, related to, like, AI or cybersecurity things, like, as you just mentioned there, that they often get involved and work with account executives to provide that technical understanding when they're working with clients and then ensuring that they can deliver on that as well from, you know, working with the engineering teams to ensure that, actually, that could be delivered, from a technical standpoint. So, I think, you know, even if I think a lot of people think and make assumptions that you have as a as a computer science graduate, you might be a little bit more introverted, but, actually, it's not necessarily the case, and you can use your personal personal skills in order to transfer them into more of a customer facing role as well.
Ben: Yep. And if you actually look at, for instance, form of degrees, there's still a lot of programming units we would see within the programs, but there's a lot of other things that go around those. So they don't really stand on their own. And even when they they do have to submit their their their code, essentially, They're never really just marked purely on that. It's more about explaining and justifying why they've made those decisions. Because as you said, like a one one big area of recruitment for computer science graduates is going into consultancy firms who then get you know, go into companies and try and do, like, digital transformations and and things such as that.
Importance of Comprehensive Education
Ben: And, again, it's the ability to explain, okay. We could use this piece of software, and it would cost you this much. Here's why this is the best choice, and, you know, it's never really just a financial decision. Something could cost more to implement, and it's better for long term, you know, security implications or maintainability, reliability. So understanding those different kind of considerations of any computing system is is something that any graduate from computer science will be able to do, and it's not often an easy thing for somebody who just has an understanding of how to program a code at a very low level, which is actually a lot of people ask why should they go to university and study computing versus doing, like, an online code course. And I think on the online code courses, those bits are always not really well put in there. They're not really part of it. So, like, project management of a computing project is never gonna be really taught on these online code camps, but it's very, very vital because the amount of code that even a software developer will do in a company, like lines of code, is quite small. Right? It's more about understanding what somebody else has implemented.
Claudia: Awesome. So you obviously mentioned solution information architect and also sales, I guess, solution engineering or sales engineering type positions. Is there any other routes that you see people going to?
Ben: So, like, testing and quality assurance. So, you know, if we think about recent cases in news, for instance, companies like Boeing, and obviously the post office scandal.
Claudia: Right?
Ben: Those two examples, if you connect the dots back, The code functioned as it was designed essentially, but the the way it functioned was wrong. And the place of quality assurance is making sure that those things don't happen and they get fixed before they get launched as a product.
Claudia: Right?
Ben: So, yeah, quality assurance and testing is a big thing, and and verifying whether what's been implemented or designed from a solution perspective is actually what the software does.
The Importance of Testing and QA
Claudia Right?
Ben: So I I say to students when they say their their code's not working, kinda 3 things that can go wrong. It's their mental model of what they've written is wrong, the code itself is actually wrong, or, something else. And being able to tell those what those three things are is very hard skill to do, and then a lot of programming and learning. Computing is about understanding when it fails and why has it failed and tracing it back and and that sort of thing. So I think that's a big a big part of the industry that's not often understood as well. That's really good to share, actually. And that leads me nicely, actually, onto, what would you say are the types of characteristics best suited to doing computer science or following this type of career path? So I think willingness to learn is a big one, and adaptability to learn as well.
Characteristics Suited for a Career in Computer Science
Claudia: So computing So if you imagine you graduate today in 2024 for computing, right, and you're gonna go into that industry, and you're gonna go into that industry for, let's say, let's say, 4 years minimum. Right?
Ben: The whole computing landscape in 40 years is gonna be vastly different to what it is now, and you're not gonna go for another degree. Right? So you need to be able to adapt to new technology. And to be able to adapt to new technology, you need to learn how to learn. Right? And that that's a really important characteristic. And to be able to learn how to learn, you need to be, like, very inquisitive. You need to not play within the rules. You need to know, oh, if I do this, what happens? You need to have that kind of, curious mind to say, oh, if I do this thing, what's the what's the outcome? Right? And a lot of our a lot of students in in in some cases don't excel at computing because they don't they don't see what happens if they do something weird and and and broken on on a on a system and then say, oh, that's what and that's how that works. Right? So sometimes that is a missing characteristic. Thank you for that. I think that would be very helpful, and people maybe think, oh, am I like this or not? And then decide, you know, whether this is gonna be a a good route for them because this is what it's all about.
Claudia: Fab, so, obviously, you work at Bournemouth University.
Claudia: You've done your PhD, and I am keen to understand how you've you, firstly, actually research to join them, and decide to study there. But then, also, we can go into a little bit more detail around how you would recommend people to choose the right career and course sorry, the right course for them?
Ben: Mhmm. Tricky. So I think so I did my PhD and my undergrad course at Dundee, which is where I was I worked from Europe, essentially.
Choosing Dundee for Education
Ben: Now I did my undergrad degree at Dundee in Scotland because I was a Scottish national, and that means I got my education free, essentially. So I chose to go to Dundee because yeah. I know. Chose to go to I chose to go to Scotland. I chose to go to Dundee, I should say, because it was commutable from my parents' house. And I thought, well, the degree's I'm not gonna pay for the degree. It doesn't make sense to get into any more deck just just to move somewhere else, and because Dundee was quite well ranked for computing as well. So it made sense to choose Dundee as an option. And then my PhD is, as I mentioned, it was it was funded. So, again, that's kinda why I went with Dundee, but Dundee was heavily known for an area of research called accessibility, so developing technology to help people, with disabilities. And the researcher that I did my work with, my PhD supervisor, that was what his background was in. So he was he moved from Canada to Scotland to Dundee to to do that research there. So I kind of thought, well, if he's made the move to be over here, the research culture must be good enough for him to move over. So that kind of said, oh, maybe it makes sense to do the PhD here. And, yeah, why then I moved on to Bournemouth for work?
Moving to Bournemouth University
Ben: I kind of liked their their vision of of what they were trying to do with with their undergraduate courses. So they're very applied courses, and there's a lot of links to industry. And I think that's Sunday's missing in a lot of university degree programs. They're very isolated, very siloed. And, yeah, I wanted to live near a beach. That was the other reason.
Claudia: I mean, that makes total sense. I I don't blame you, as an avid surfer. But, also, I would say that I mean, I've even seen it coming. You know, I see a lot of Bournemouth graduates come through who I speak with, for example, who have done a year in industry and things like that. And I think there is a lot more applicable Yep. Application from a lot of the degrees that they do versus some other universities, which is a big plus.
Choosing The Right University
Claudia: So, I guess that leads me nicely onto, you know, how would you recommend people to choose the right course for them? Like, there are obviously lots of wonderful courses out there for computer science, so undergrad, masters level, etcetera. But, ultimately, how do they choose where to go based on other than just, like, university rankings, let's say?
Ben: Yeah. So let I mean, we can touch on university rankings first. Right? So what people don't often realize that university rankings are are not purely based on the teaching reputation of that university. It's not solely it's that is part of it, but it's not solely based on that. So, every couple of years, universities go through one process called the TEF, which is the teaching excellence framework in the UK, where they all get ranked on on certain teaching characteristics. Some things are ranked such as on student staff ratio, so the amount of staff you have in the department versus students. And it and it can't be it can't be, like, 1 to 1 because that wouldn't make sense either, and it can't be, like, 1 to 250. Right? It needs to be somewhere kind of in the middle. Right? So that's one metric. And then the other metric that we're based on is this thing called the REF, which is the research excellence framework. And universities from the government get a certain pot of money based on how excellent their research is. And the universities that get, more money are the ones that place higher in this ranking, which for me is counterintuitive. Right? So the university is doing the best research, who are already bringing in the most research money, get more money to increase their research ability, where if it was the other way around, that would make more sense. So you're gonna always find the most prestigious universities are at the top end because they have the most money to, you know, do things. So for instance, facility spend, the amount of money that universities put into facilities makes their ranking higher, which is why a lot of universities will build new buildings and all that kind of stuff. Right? So the rankings don't really mean that the place is gonna be changing. Is is It's a bit of a vicious cycle because, you know, people who go to Oxbridge have normally come from private educated background, and then, therefore, they'll get trustees who will then put money back into the universities. In all because, ultimately, they can be obviously, they can make charitable donations and then get their name like, get buildings made named after them, etcetera. Yeah. No. Exactly. So I would say that the some of the rankings, you can definitely look at them, and and just be aware that they're not purely based on the teaching. So make sure you're looking at the teaching metrics within them. So, you know, if you and if you compare, like, the top ranked school for something and then the 10th ranked 2 over something, and you look at the the individual characteristics, you'll see that the only major difference might be the amount of research money they bring in or the amount of research that they have or or whatever it happens to be. So I would say that's the first thing that rankings are everything. I would say the other thing is think about actually where you want to to live realistically for 4 years, and what characteristics do you need to have a successful, I don't know, like, mental well-being during that time? So a lot of students across our university, across many universities are are really finding mental health difficult. And I find that, you know, going to university and moving away from your family is a tricky thing anyway. If you went to a particular place because you thought it was the best ranked university, but you didn't wanna live there, then that's not gonna be the best experience. So I'd say those 2 things first. Right? Don't even rankings. Think about where you actually wanna spend 4 years of your life, and what else is gonna help you be that person you want to be? And then I would think about more strategic. It makes sense to be at a university that's close to the industry you wanna work in. Right? So if you wanna work in the financial sector, for instance, in London, then it makes sense to be a university that's pretty pretty close to that financial sector because it's likely they're gonna have good links to those financial sectors. Right? Absolutely. For instance, Glasgow University has a lot of good connection to JPMorgan because they've got a base up there, and Bournemouth has good connections to JPMorgan because there's a base down here. So sometimes you need to look at what big company is based around where I wanna where I wanna study. And then I would say go through as many open days as you can and actually try and talk to the actual staff because, again, your experience is gonna be influenced by those staff. Right? Now those staff might leave by the time you go into your course. That happens. Right? People at the end of the day are in a lot. But you'll get a sense of what the culture is like at the institution and how well they're gonna support you through those kinda open day events. So get a feel for what it's like to be a student really there. So walk around the campus, see how you feel because that's gonna be where you're gonna spend a lot of your time. And then at that point, then I would start looking at the smaller things that's actually gonna get taught because at the end of the day, what you're gonna get taught on different degree programs. So we used to be computing at Borma versus computing, Dundee, let's say, probably gonna come up with very similar skills. Right? But it's the other stuff that fits around those skills that are important. So when you're at the open days, ask what, How do you involve industry in your teaching, for instance? Or what kind of what would you say your student culture is like? You know? How how well do the student bodies interact across programs because that's quite important. So, yeah, things like that is what I would actually use to inform my decision if I was doing again. I think that's a really nice holistic view.
Claudia: Definitely, mental health and, like, the other external factors that aren't just purely academic is incredibly important. I went to the University of Surrey, and I'd come from living in Brighton and being brought up in Brighton, which is a lot more of a vibrant city than Surrey. And I found Surrey, if I'm being really totally transparent, moving to Guildford was a little bit boring for me, which, yeah, I think it was a bit of a culture shock for me, actually, which was interesting. But, yeah, definitely have a look at where you're going to be. That's brilliant advice.
How Is AI Affecting Computer Science
Claudia: How will AI affect your profession so industry. When you're when you ask that question, do you mean my profession in terms of academia, or do you mean computing science in general? Because I think there are different answers. There are different definitely different answers. So let's go firstly with computer science Okay.
Ben: In general. So I would say that the public perception is that AI is this new thing that's just, like, appeared out of nowhere. Right? Like, magic. Right? And I think, actually, AI has been increasingly important in computing for, I don't know, listen, the past 10, 15 years. Right? So I don't think it has as much impact in computing as it might do in other fields where it's less transferable or or has been less transferable in the past. I think it has influenced actual how we write software. So for instance, GitHub, who's owned who are owned by Microsoft, took Microsoft's AI engine and embedded it into the development process. So you can essentially get GitHub, which for me who don't know, used to essentially be just a place where you could store code repositories, so essentially your your your code files. So a lot of, open source projects, and for those of you who don't know what open source is, essentially, wherein, software is made open and anybody can contribute to it. So if something's open source, I, as an individual developer, can can choose to to be part of that project, write a bit of code, and and support that project in that way. And a lot of computing, a lot of what we use in a daily basis is open source, and it's maintained by random people over the globe. Right? So, like, the whole world is based on people just doing it off their own back for free, essentially. So that's what GitHub used to be mainly focused on. Now they've kinda shifted to more supporting developers, and they've embedded a lot of AI support into that. So I think what it will probably mean is that people spend less time actually developing code, and that's why those those kind of interprofessional skills I talked about earlier are even gonna be more important because if you're less valuable just because you produce good code, what does it mean to be, a computer science professional? So that would be how it would affect that. But I think, again, it's been affecting that for a long time. Right? So I don't think it's gonna change that much very soon, at least. No. And just on the AI coding Yep.
How Accurate Is AI In Coding?
Claudia: How accurate is it?
Ben: So fairly, again, you need to know so if you took a random person off the street who had no computing experience and you asked them to use AI to build a website, they're not gonna build the website. Right? It's not gonna not gonna make sense, or it's not gonna be what you wanted it to be. Right? If you took somebody who has a working knowledge of computing and get them an AI tool and get them to make a website, they'll probably make a working website. Right? If you give somebody who has a lot of background in computing an AI tool to help them build a website, then they're gonna be able to build a website that previously might have taken them a week or 2 in, like, an afternoon. Right? So it's pretty accurate is the thing, but you need to know when it's not accurate, and I think that's actually the bigger challenge. So it's by knowing, oh, that's not quite what I want and saying, oh, I want this. Or for instance, the other day, I asked it to try and, reverse engineer some student project that that it did for me because I couldn't get access to the files, and I'm gonna use that same thing for research with the student's permission now. But I asked it to just recreate this interface, but I needed to know what what I was asking for. Right? So I asked it to make me an HTML file and a CSS file. And by knowing even that those two files were separate things, then I got it to do it. If I didn't, it would have just made this messy kind of thing that kinda would have worked, but wouldn't have been very useful.
How AI Is Affecting University Lecturers
Claudia: So yeah. Interesting. And so how is AI going to affect your profession as a lecturer?
Ben: Well, I think it's it it already has. Right? So I think universities across across the sector were very slow to react. So we think about the chat TDD came out a couple of years now. And when it first came out, the immediate scared decision by a lot of universities was to ban it. Right? Ban it. We we're we're we're not gonna allow anyone to use it. And it kinda took a lot of people to be like, well, actually, we're not gonna be able to prove that that someone's used it or no. So, actually, banning it does actually make a lot of sense. So we took a different approach, which I I co led in our department and said, actually, what if we embraced it? What if the computing department, because we understand it, what if we embrace it and allow students to use it? How do we allow them to use it in effective ways? And then I've contributed to kind of Bournemouth University's AI think tank, which is kind of trying to lead the institutional response to that. So one way we did it was we allowed, our unit leaders to choose whether they were not gonna allow students to use it or they were gonna fully allow students to use it. And those are the 2 different options. And when you're fully allowing someone to use it, you just give grading for different parts. Right? So I think a lot of university degrees, in the past at least, have provided or not or have they've marked or rewarded credit, let's say, for generating content. Right? So like an essay. Generating the essay is kinda what you get the with the marks for, or generating code is what you get the marks for. And that made sense when that was the hard bit. Right? But, actually, what you got the extra marks for, even in those times, were how well your content matched the brief, how well you explained or justified what you decided or your argument or or whatever. Right? So if the content is actually quite easy to produce, that justification is still quite hard. So if we shift the the credit or what, like, what we give the credit to for that part that we're trying to assess anyway, then that's what what I've been trying to push for. But actually, Bournemouth is going in that direction now, which is good. And I think a lot of university are going that direction as well, which is nice. That's incredibly interesting, actually, hearing the use cases that you can apply within the academic world because, I mean, obviously, I work with tech companies, and there's lots of different ways that AI can be applied and help, and not necessarily hinder lots of different departments. It's lots of different things. So I guess it's all very much dependent on what you're doing.
How Much Can You Earn In Computer Science
Claudia: Brilliant. Okay. So let's go a little bit more into salaries for people when they graduate. So you obviously mentioned cybersecurity, data analytics, obviously, software development, etcetera. Do you well, could you provide some insights into salaries when people graduate for these types of roles?
Ben: Well, I mean, I I would say to step back before that. Right? You mentioned placement years, often, students that go on their placements, and that's really they're they're doing their 3rd year as a placement year. So they wanna get on 2 years of the degree. Their placement salaries are often, like, just as good, if not better than the average seller in the UK. So their placement salaries can be, like, 30 k or something. Right?And that's not like the outlier. That's that's like the typical that's the typical salary. Right?
Claudia: That's not bad. So it's not it's not bad.
Ben: Right? So, yeah, I think the actual salary depends on what kind of company you go into, and what kind of workload you want and what kind of thing you're supporting. So if you go and work on, you know, JPMorgan or or even somewhere like. So one of my friends who did his PhD the same time as me said, we've got very similar skill sets because he did we did both at the same degrees. He was working in, and he was getting paid, you know, 6 figures, right, for doing and he wasn't he wasn't a programmer. He was a a user experience researcher. Right? So he was leading a lot of meta's internal research, mostly looking at policy actually and what what their social media policy needed to be and I got, well, protecting, vulnerable groups on Facebook. That's kind of what he was doing, and he was paid, like, 6 figures. Right?
Claudia: So it does depend, on what specific role after his PhD, just to clarify.
Ben: Yeah. But it doesn't necessarily need a PhD to go into that role. I think it's definitely easier if you have that kind of experience, and some of them do need that if you go to that kind of UX level. But there'll be developers who work at Google and Facebook who are on 6 figures who don't have a PhD. Right? They're just coming straight out of out of undergrad, and going to those rooms. I think it it might take you a while to get to 6 figures, but not a long time. So yeah. I agree.
Claudia: I think it's probably one of the most lucrative careers you can get. So if you're money motivated, it is a winner. Honestly, I think, you know, tech roles are by and far, like, most well paid jobs in a lot of industries right now. So Yep. It is a fantastic career route.
3 Actionable Steps To Get Into Computer Science
Claudia: What three actionable steps would you recommend to those looking to get into a computer science related position?
Ben: So I think it depends. Are you saying before they went to university or before or where like, where what point of their journey would you want the the response to be? I think it's different depending on where you're at. Definitely. I would say, let's say, for example, you have done let's do let's answer it on different facets. So first of all, I guess, you're looking at doing an undergrad in undergrad. What resources would you recommend for people to, like, learn? So I would say the first is to go and see if you actually enjoy programming. And you're not going to understand you're not you're not doing that to understand if you actually like physical programming, but it's do you have an analytical and curious brain? Right? So going to one of the best ones is Codecademy, has really good free courses on JavaScript and Python. So JavaScript's basically a lot of what runs web technologies. Python's used a lot in machine learning now. That's what basically builds the model for chat GTP or or AI engines, essentially. So go and play around with them and see what see how you feel of kind of expressing yourself in another language, which really is what programming is about. And if you understand that, then, yeah, then see what kind of jobs you want to go into. And you might not know. Right? But try and look up what companies what what those companies do and what kind of roles might exist within those And do you wanna build websites? Are you interested in AI, computer vision? Like, what what what's your what's your itch? What what are you interested in in terms of technology? Like, what part of it? And then once you understand that, then I would then I would start looking at courses and seeing what course pathway exists for you. Like, what would actually get you to work in that specific industry you wanna work in?
Are Online Coding Courses Worth It
Claudia: I love that. And I think that could probably be applied for all anyone looking within that. So you've answered that as quite holistically, which is great. Fabulous. And what are your thoughts on I'm gonna ask you a bit of a one which is probably gonna push the academic buttons here. But, there were so many influencers out on the Internet at the moment who talk about how they've just learned to code online. How do you feel about that?
Ben: I I the first thing is it's it's really, really good, probably. I think what we don't have as much in computing as we should is, like, equal representation. Right? So we have, at Bournemouth, at least, we have we have a few women on our courses, but not as much as we like. And there's still a huge gap in terms of how many women are going into tech, and also people from different backgrounds going into tech as well. So disadvantaged backgrounds, for instance, is is always something that that's tricky as well. So I think the more the people understand it's it's there as an industry to go into. So if influencers can promote that, then I'm all for it, realistically. And, actually, having more people understanding how tech works in in a kind of low level way So it is good. Right? So you've probably seen, like, couple of couple of months ago where somebody from TikTok was in the senate talking to the US senate on on tech. Right? And they they just they just don't understand it. Right? And and that person who does understand it is getting questions that don't really make a lot of sense. So I think tech impacts so many different parts of the world and so many different industries. If you're in a in a meeting, in a room, and you understand just a little bit more than the average person, then that's that's gonna be better for everybody. Right? So I think that's another good thing about it, essentially.
Claudia: Okay. That wasn't necessarily the answer I was expecting, but I quite liked it.
Ben: What what what was the answer you were expecting?
Claudia: No. You're just starting from me. Like, no. You must have learned online. You must come to university.
Ben: To study. I mean, I I think it's pretty I think university is only one pathway to get into a software development role. You know, it's not the only pathway. It doesn't make sense for everybody. I don't actually think. As I said before, it's quite a challenging structure. It it doesn't really fit into a lot of people from different backgrounds. Right? So if you had, I don't know, let's say kids early on, right, the university degree is not really gonna fit around that. Or if you have so I've got a friend who, works in hospitality at the moment. Right? And he's really great at what he does. He's really good in a personal skills, really understands business, and he wants to get into tech. Right? Now for him, I don't think university makes sense financially or, like, that's gonna be another 4 years for him to get into industry. Right? But he already has a lot of the interpersonal skills, so he's already learned a lot of the business stuff. He really just needs that technical insight. And there's a lot of programs funded by the government actually to go through kind of cold courses and connect you into those industries in those ways. So I think for him, that makes a lot more sense. Right?
Claudia: Absolutely. So I was even speaking with someone, I think, earlier this week about how they are they work with platforms that do essentially provide those courses to, I guess, digitalize your skills. And it's very it's actually a really nice platform for those, for example, who are maybe they're mothers. Maybe they're coming back from maternity leave, and they actually have decided that they hated their job before, and now they wanna pivot and do something else.
Ben: And those platforms enable them to then retrain, and probably not a ridiculously high cost either, comparative to university fees these days, and do, like, digital apprenticeships, for example, and then they can often get placements at the end of them as well. So, there are some examples like Multiverse, and some other, like, Coursera and some other boot camps as well out there. So Yeah. And a lot of them a lot of them are essentially free for for for people to do. Right? So there's a I can't remember the government. I think it's the government upscale program. And it a lot of they're, like, kinda delivered through individual councils. So I know there's one running at the moment in Cornwall, and I know there's one in Hampshire, and it probably is other ones around the country. And it's around, yeah, upscaling, and it doesn't cost you anything. You've gotta commit to a certain amount of time and a certain amount of input, but other than that, yeah, it makes a lot of sense if you wanna pivot, I think. I think it's a great initiative, to be honest. As I think I've I read a stat the other day about how millions of us are gonna have to retrain by 2025 or 50% of the workforce. I think it was something as big as, in order to keep up with AI and so much, I guess, a velocity of technology changes. I mean, I don't know. I mean, that's a stat that gets pulled out right, and I think a a lot of people think that AI is gonna take all the jobs. And don't think that's ever really gonna be the case. Right? And I think a lot of times when new technology comes along, people freak out and say things are gonna, you know, change. Right?
Retraining In Computer Science
Ben: So for instance, if you think about when the Internet first launched, right, it created new jobs. Right? It didn't really actually kill off many jobs at all. Right? Again, if you don't have that adaptability to put your, like, business online, for instance, that's strictly right. But I don't think it's really gonna mean there's so many people are gonna have to retrain.
Claudia: Now if you do retrain, are you gonna have a competitor competitive advantage in the workplace? Think that that's well communicated. I think we've seen well communicated. I think we've seen so many layoffs.
Ben: We've seen 100 and thousands of layoffs in the tech industry, and it is probably, you know, in part because there is a little bit more AI, which does eliminate people's jobs a little bit. But at the same time oh, go for it. Well, so I was at Google a couple of weeks ago, and I was chatting to somebody who worked in Google, and they gave me the kind of inside track on on why all these layoffs were happening. And I hadn't really considered it before either. And, again, this is kinda I'm although it might not be the real case, but if you think about how much money these companies are putting into training these AI models, right, and we're talking 1,000,000, billions of money, right, getting funneled into them, having the best trained model. And every single company is trying to build their own model. So Google is trying to build their own. OpenAI is trying to build their own. Matt is over here building their own. Microsoft is building their own. Right? The real problem is, currently, they're not making any money from it. Right? There's no return on investment. So they're they're cutting off all the departments they can so they can actually put as much money into AI. So it's not that AI is removing those jobs. It's these companies actually pivoting and saying, oh, we're gonna, you know, actually put the money that we do have over here, and they're not necessarily seeing a return yet. So I think once the companies will start making the financial money back, I think it will rise back up again. So I don't think those jobs are going away that they've they've cut off. I think they're just prioritizing this other thing in the moment, and that's my my idea my one off idea, my thoughts at least.
Claudia: Yeah. I think that's a good insight, but you haven't discussed you know, they just talked about the players in the industry, but there have been layoffs left, right, and center with everyone below them as well. And I think that's obviously due to a lot of economic and political factors throughout the world at the moment, obviously, and how it's affected supply chains and, everything, to be honest. So, anyway, could have a whole different podcast on that. So, anyway so finally, Ben, what was the best piece of advice that you ever received?
Ben: Oh. Oh, the oh, you you caught me off guard. The best piece of advice I've ever received. From a mentor or someone? So I would I would actually probably say, one of my colleagues I work with it's probably not maybe not the best piece of advice I've ever received, but let's say the most the most recent that stuck in my mind, the the the world has changed by the people who show up. Right? So, yeah, show up, be involved. Maybe that opportunity won't actually make sense, but the fact that you went and and pushed your perspective a little bit, maybe that will change your perspective, and maybe it'll lead to different opportunities. So so, yeah, make sure you turn up and and do different things, essentially. Quite like that, actually.
Claudia: And what was the context of that conversation? How does that come up? That was telling students why they should attend. No. But but really that is.
Ben: But I think, we we use it for that method as well, but also we do a lot of, kind of code jams and hackathons where we bring in we set a challenge and begin to work together. So we kind of tell the ones who've turned up, oh, really great. You're here. You're gonna have a great week. You know, we use that metric, but we also say, oh, tell your friends, you know, that they should be here too. Right? Because a lot of times we we expect to get, like, 50 students to turn up those events, and sometimes it's not as many as that, and it's kinda like, oh, they're missing out on the opportunities. And then they always see that the the publicity of those events or the prizes people get, and they're like, oh, I wish I turned up. It's kinda like, well, yeah. You should have. Right? So that's mostly the context. No. I think that makes total sense. And I think showing up in general and in life and pushing yourself out of your comfort zone is the only way that people grow and develop.
Claudia: And so that is definitely a key theme for some from some of the podcasts, especially today. So thank you, Ben. Good. Well, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you, and you have definitely shared some really interesting insights, I have to say. I really enjoyed the conversation.
So thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you so you have good questions. Pushed me out my conversation as well. Good. I'm glad.
I'm glad to hear it. It. Great. Thank you so much. Thank you.
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